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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

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Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#41

Post by mikeash »

justadudeama wrote: post #30
laurentl wrote: post #19

Any idea if and how this ruling (if upheld) can be used to refuse phone seizures / password requests by CBP when entering the country? The ruling relies on the 5th amendment so its scope is limited to American citizens I guess. And whatever the rule of law it’s probably not a good idea to piss off a CBP agent... but still, it’d be nice to be able to travel to the US without having to wipe one’s phone and social media…

I highly doubt it, even for American citizens at the border. The "Border search exception" pretty much says that anywhere within 100 miles of a boarder, the fourth amendment doesn't apply[1]. I imagine they would make a similar rule for the fifth amendment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

Citizens can’t be denied entry. Worst case if you refuse to turn over your phone password is a short (hours, maybe days) detention, and confiscation of your phone.

Non-citizen admittance is at the discretion of the immigration officer and they can turn you away for just about any reason.

Either way, yes, this ruling wouldn’t change anything there.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#42

Post by mikeash »

newnewpdro wrote: post #26

So they just need to reproduce your likeness to unlock your poorly-secured device? Sounds significant, when you're already in custody. /s

And do so within 48 hours, and with enough fidelity not to trigger a lockout with failed attempts.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#43

Post by chrisper »

nerflad wrote: post #29

This might be a good time to let others know: Android (at least my OnePlus) has a "Lockdown" mode in the shutdown menu that locks the screen and prevents the usage of the biometric methods. You have to use the password. This is good because passwords have already been hashed out in court and are unequivocally protected by the fifth amendment; you don't have to tell an officer your password (and entering it for them c…

It's also in EMUI 9 (Huawei) now.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#44

Post by zik »

derekp7 wrote: post #9
jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…

I thought that polygraphs were not accepted as evidence in court, but are still used by some government and private agencies. Also, just curious, have they been discredited as in that double-blind trials show no more than a 50/50 chance of being correct (i.e., flipping a coin)? Or is it that a high enough percentage of people will fail them even if innocent, or pass them even if guilty? The thing I don't like about t…

> have they been discredited as in that double-blind trials show no more than a 50/50 chance of being correct?

Yes. The reading of polygraphs is very subjective and it's been found that they reflect only whether the person administering the test thinks the subject is guilty.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#45

Post by mirimir »

As others have noted, this decision comes from a low-level court. And from what I've seen recently, it won't stand.

Indeed, the basis of the opinion is iffy:

> “If a person cannot be compelled to provide a passcode because it is a testimonial communication, a person cannot be compelled to provide one’s finger, thumb, iris, face, or other biometric feature to unlock that same device,” the judge wrote.

Because defendants' right under the 5th to withhold passcodes is not at all settled. And even if they can't be compelled, they can be jailed indefinitely for contempt of court. Even if, as that ex cop in Philadelphia claims, they've forgotten it.

So anyway, this is iffy advice:

> The best advice for anyone concerned about government overreach into their smartphones: Stick to a strong alphanumeric passcode that you won’t be compelled to disclose.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#46

Post by chucksmash »

nerflad wrote: post #29

This might be a good time to let others know: Android (at least my OnePlus) has a "Lockdown" mode in the shutdown menu that locks the screen and prevents the usage of the biometric methods. You have to use the password. This is good because passwords have already been hashed out in court and are unequivocally protected by the fifth amendment; you don't have to tell an officer your password (and entering it for them c…

Don't know how vanilla this is, but on a Moto g^6 I have configured biometric auth but have to auth via PIN 1) every time I boot the phone and 2) every 24 hours.

Waiting for a case where the FBI bangs down Google's door to get access to a locked Android phone before I make any assumptions about the security implications of that though.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#47

Post by rando444 »

bootlooped wrote: post #37
jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…

I'm not sure how the courts will differentiate between biometric data related to authentication and biometric data from blood tests, breathalyzers or DNA tests. The latter are, in a sense, examples of forcing you to divulge something stored in your body.

The only difference I can see is that in the case of alcohol, biometric data is the thing you are looking for.

In the case of telephones, biometric data is being used to get access to something else.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#48

Post by coralreef »

jedberg wrote: post #35
nerflad wrote: post #29

This might be a good time to let others know: Android (at least my OnePlus) has a "Lockdown" mode in the shutdown menu that locks the screen and prevents the usage of the biometric methods. You have to use the password. This is good because passwords have already been hashed out in court and are unequivocally protected by the fifth amendment; you don't have to tell an officer your password (and entering it for them c…

iPhone too. Press the power button five times and it goes into password only mode.

Holding the power + volume button also forces a lock, and is more discreet in that it doesn't make blaring beeps and call emergency.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#49

Post by perpetualpatzer »

spaceheeder wrote: post #8
porpoisely wrote: post #4

But can they seize your phone and crack it and look through your stuff without your permission or getting a warrant/judicial oversight? Otherwise, the only thing this does is add one extra step ( and additional cost which doesn't matter since taxpayers are footing the bill ) for the Feds to break into your phone.

They do need a warrant now, although they did not used to, and obviously don't need one if you hand an unlocked phone over upon request (same as if you go along with 'let me see your backpack'). It's unlikely this ruling will be upheld since providing biometrics to unlock a phone is difficult to construe as 'testimony' since it's performing an action, like complying with a court order to unlock your front door in res…

> It's unlikely this ruling will be upheld since providing biometrics to unlock a phone is difficult to construe as 'testimony'

Agreed, feels like this rises and falls with the forced blood draws issue that was decided in the 60s [0]. Maybe if you claim the phone isn't yours, unlocking it with your face or password would be testimonial? Not sure if that defense would survive them calling the number that was registered to you.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmerber_v._California

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#50

Post by ColanR »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #10
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even forensic science can be used questionably. Really, once you're in the court room it's entirely rhetoric and fudge-factor.

Agreed. Pretty much everything in forensic science turns out to be junk science over a long enough timeline. Hair, bite marks, fire progression, all junk. There's even a few cracks in the fingerprint wall. Don't get me started on all the field test kits of various types that LEOs use. The only things that seem to be reliable are things that don't have their roots in forensic science (e.g. using DNA to identify people…

And along those lines, I've heard that DNA tests aren't reliable either.
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