Live data from Hacker News

Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

bloomberg.com

201–210 of 218 posts

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#201
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have zero leverage or bargaining power against these large employers. You have the leverage not to work there. They have the leverage not to hire you. If enough people choose to work there despite things they don’t like, your leverage is not lost because of the company being large, it’s lost because people choose to work there despite things you don’t like. Companies compete for employees.

Have you read the article? In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed. Also, most employees aren't fully aware of what these non-competes mean anyway.

>Have you read the article?

Yes.

> In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts.

As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career.

>So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed.

If it's that onerous, sign one to get a job, and while getting paid, immediately look for a new job that doesn't violate it without one. Not a single state has one so broad as to prevent you from any reasonable work. Problem solved.

Employment is always a negotiation. If you enter thinking you have zero leverage and are unable or unwilling to find other work, then you do have zero leverage.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, which individual corporation is favored here? It's not like only some corporations are allowed to have non-compete clauses.

The one that has the non-compete signed with the employee is favored over all others that would like to hire that employee.

And other companies are free to sign non-competes with other people. There's no single "one" company separate from the rest except perhaps from the point of view of a single employee. As has been said by others, non-competes are primarily a weapon in corporate warfare, where the actual natural persons are just pawns.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#203
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read the article? In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed. Also, most employees aren't fully aware of what these non-competes mean anyway.

>Have you read the article? Yes. > In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copy…

> As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career.

I'll be polite and not accuse you of fabricating. Your experience is extremely, curiously atypical. I know from experience that these clauses are mandatory for several large employers. They are not waived for anyone. If you google, you'll find examples of senior vice presidents being sued for them.

The only way you can have them waived is if you negotiate with small employers who are starved for talent, and even then it won't be easy to do as a junior.

In fact I'm skeptical you even knew what a non-compete was as a recent grad.

> If it's that onerous, sign one to get a job, and while getting paid, immediately look for a new job that doesn't violate it without one.

So your solution is to act unethically, accept a permanent position just to get a paycheck while looking for a new job?

My impression of this comment is sinking by the sentence.

Reality check: if everyone in your area requires a non-compete, and you couldn't get a NC-free offer months, why would you get one now, when you're looking to leave a job you literally just accepted?

To potential employers, you now look worse than before.

> Employment is always a negotiation. If you enter thinking you have zero leverage and are unable or unwilling to find other work, then you do have zero leverage.

Translation:

"I like to make boastful absolutist claims because I have very little actual experience in the job market."

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#204
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Have you read the article? Yes. > In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copy…

> As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career. I'll be polite and not accuse you…

>I'll be polite and not accuse you of fabricating.

Then why mention it? So you can say you mentioned it? You can look up my name - I've written a decent amount of material for pay, some of which is also on my website, precisely because I requested the copyrights. You can look over my employment and side project history to see I have gotten the ability to both work on commercial stuff at work and off work.

Instead of implying someone is lying with passive aggressive nonsense, simply do some legwork.

>In fact I'm skeptical you even knew what a non-compete was as a recent grad.

You seem to make a lot of claims about me. Maybe your experience is not what everyone has seen? I learned well before leaving undergrad that you can edit legal documents before signing them, and if they countersign, then they agreed to your document. If they don't like it, then you negotiate.

This I thought was common knowledge.

>Your experience is extremely, curiously atypical.

There's a lot of similar claims on this page.

>for several large employers

I've stayed away from them for the most part, since they're more inflexible, and for good reason: dealing with lots of employees is much easier with uniform rules.

>So your solution is to act unethically This was opposed to simply breaking contracts or go unemployed. And a job is a business agreement - you work there as long as it suits you, they employ you as long as it suits them. If they're doing something you find so onerous, it's not unreasonable to find a new job.

>"I like to make boastful absolutist claims because I have very little actual experience in the job market."

You may want to look up my name. It's astounding you make so many claims about me without knowing me. What this shows, more than anything, is that you believe your own views, correct or not, over simply looking to check if something is true.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#205
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career. I'll be polite and not accuse you…

>I'll be polite and not accuse you of fabricating. Then why mention it? So you can say you mentioned it? You can look up my name - I've written a decent amount of material for pay, some of which is also on my website, precisely because I requested the copyrights. You can look over my employment and side project history to see I have gotten the ability to both work on commercial stuff at work and off work. Instead of…

I apologize if I came across as overly harsh. I did look up your resume, and it does confirm my assertions. In fact, you are not directly contradicting any of them.

I made three assertions:

1. You will not be able to negotiate away non-compete clauses with large, powerful employers.

2. You may be able to negotiate them as a senior candidate for smaller companies.

3. Junior candidates will find it hard to negotiate their offers, including waiver of non-competes.

You agreed with my 1st assertion.

Your resume shows you to be a perfect example of the 2nd assertion. You are a senior engineer, an expert in his field, who worked in very senior technical roles in a series of small and very small companies. As such, you were in the best possible position to negotiate.

You seemed to dispute my 3rd assertion with your claim that you were able to negotiate non-competes away "early in your career", but your resume shows you took a Lead Programmer position in your very first year of full-time work. So you were never really a junior - you were a senior engineer working for small operations since the earliest stage of your career.

This is great for you, congratulations. It doesn't change the fact that your situation is unique, and doesn't generally apply. Not to most engineers, and certainly not to fast-food and similar unskilled workers mentioned in the article. These are people who don't have much money, really need the job, and often have limited choices in their area. They don't have the money to relocate, nor do they have leverage to negotiate.

So while I applaud you for being in the favorable position to negotiate away clauses since your first year of employment, I still caution against concluding that this is how it works for everyone else as well.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#206
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer but I don't think you can do that, no

Yes you can. I'm serving a 1 year non-compete and my former employer encourages getting non finance work because they hope you never go back to the industry

What a horrible thing for society. Forcing people to stop doing things they are so good at that employers will pay them not to work with their competitors.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#207
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find any historical reason noncompetes were banned. I assume it happened because California was a new state and people coming there to work did not want to get stuck with the first employer they happened to end up with. There also would not have been a heavily established business lobby with enough power to prevent a ban, as there was on the east coast. California was writing a new legal code, so there was no…

It wasn't a conscious choice -- they were drafting their laws from a set of model statutes called the Field Code and simply didn't even think about changing the provision. Interestingly, this also happened in North Dakota. https://www.noncompetereport.com/2013/01/north-dakota-non-co...

Interesting fact filled article with an obvious employer bias slipping in at the end.

"Employers wishing to protect themselves from unfair competition in North Dakota should tread carefully."

It would be great to get these laws prohibitions of non-competes in more states. It is one of the main reasons I still live in the high cost of living/high taxed state of California.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting 75% of your salary to do nothing for 2 years is the opportunity of a lifetime The examples you listed makes me ask this. Imagine your parents, while raising you, given this option of having their pay reduced by 25%. How likely would the options you listed have been an "opportunity of a lifetime" to them?

Are you really saying that 100% of your time is worth 25% of your salary? And that isn't even counting work-related costs.

I have a right to earn a living. I have worked many years preparing to do so in a particular area of trade. There is a market price for my skills. Taking 25% of that away is unfair, is my point. Justifying it by saying "Oh, but you could travel!" is the same level of empathy as saying "Let them eat cake".

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#209
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a conscious choice -- they were drafting their laws from a set of model statutes called the Field Code and simply didn't even think about changing the provision. Interestingly, this also happened in North Dakota. https://www.noncompetereport.com/2013/01/north-dakota-non-co...

Interesting fact filled article with an obvious employer bias slipping in at the end. "Employers wishing to protect themselves from unfair competition in North Dakota should tread carefully." It would be great to get these laws prohibitions of non-competes in more states. It is one of the main reasons I still live in the high cost of living/high taxed state of California.

Yeah, I think the blog is written by lawyers who represent employers and/or draft noncompetes.

Massachusetts recently almost banned them, California style, in response to the narrative that the Route 128 tech corridor could have been Silicon Valley were it not for enforceable noncompetes. The law was heavily watered down once industry lobbyists (especially from all the biotech companies) got done with it.

Still, it is a big improvement over the status quo. It limits time to one year, requires 50% compensation during the time when you can't work, and bans the most egregious abuses (noncompetes for minimum wage employees and so on).

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would mind it a lot, because when I leave a company I'll be making more than I do now, not 75% of what I do now.

Getting 75% of your salary to do nothing for 2 years is the opportunity of a lifetime - travel the world, get a Masters degree, find a low CoL area and bank 90% of it while contributing to open source projects, the options are endless.

Most American engineers don't think that way, because they have house mortgages they have to keep paying on, and Americans are terrible at living within their means so even upper middle class people are living paycheck-to-paycheck (i.e., they bought a house they could only barely afford with their current pay rate, a pay cut would mean they'd be forced to sell or go bankrupt).
Post reply on HN