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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
11–20 of 294 posts
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#12I won't believe this ruling is safe until it goes thru higher levels. The Executive Branch has over the past 2 decades has shown a large propensity for attempts to disregard the 4th and 5th amendments, and I see no change in this posture or the attempts to subvert them with the current political climate.
There is a high probability that this will be challenged at a higher level.
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
Look up studies on the reliability of witness testimony if you want to get really scared on how courts run.
Even forensic science can be used questionably. Really, once you're in the court room it's entirely rhetoric and fudge-factor.
My favorite case was where someone was accused of arson because the wood floor was found to contain traces of gasoline, even though none was found on the carpet or padding on top. Turns out that further testing by the defense showed lead also. Which means that the gasoline came from a cheap contractor several decades ago that used (at the time leaded) gasoline as a lacquer thinner for the hardwood floor. And the burn patterns on the floor which indicated an accelerant, were due to wear patterns on the carpet above which allowed more heat to penetrate.
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#14Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…
My understanding is that the police use polygraphs simply as a 'primed' question-asking session for people who agree to take them. It is no different from sitting down and asking someone questions, except maybe they will believe you can tell that they are lying, and so might be more honest. The polygraph doesn't have to be evidence because your answers to questions are evidence by themselves. Whether you are hooked up to a polygraph is irrelevant.
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#15Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…
"Tangentially related, it's astounding to me that polygraphs are still considered valid evidence given how widely they've been discredited."
They generally are not considered valid evidence.
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#16Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…
I thought that polygraphs were not accepted as evidence in court, but are still used by some government and private agencies. Also, just curious, have they been discredited as in that double-blind trials show no more than a 50/50 chance of being correct (i.e., flipping a coin)? Or is it that a high enough percentage of people will fail them even if innocent, or pass them even if guilty? The thing I don't like about t…
What does it mean for a polygraph to be "correct?" They're not lie detectors, they are stress detectors. You can't "fail" a polygraph in any reliable sense.
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#17Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…
Look up studies on the reliability of witness testimony if you want to get really scared on how courts run.
And jurors.
This one's my favourite:
The jurors who used a Ouija board to find a murderer guilty - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-08/ouija-board-juror-mis...
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#18Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…
My understanding is that the police use polygraphs simply as a 'primed' question-asking session for people who agree to take them. It is no different from sitting down and asking someone questions, except maybe they will believe you can tell that they are lying, and so might be more honest. The polygraph doesn't have to be evidence because your answers to questions are evidence by themselves. Whether you are hooked u…
> Whether you are hooked up to a polygraph is irrelevant.
I'm going to go with strongly disagree here.
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#19Any idea if and how this ruling (if upheld) can be used to refuse phone seizures / password requests by CBP when entering the country? The ruling relies on the 5th amendment so its scope is limited to American citizens I guess. And whatever the rule of law it’s probably not a good idea to piss off a CBP agent... but still, it’d be nice to be able to travel to the US without having to wipe one’s phone and social media accounts.
Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules
#20This nice and all in theory but looking through the lens of reality where police are legally allowed to lie to get a confession - claiming they have evidence that they don’t have to coerce a confession and seeing that “rubber hose decryption” is real, it really doesn’t mean much in practice.
Edit:
Since people don’t seem to believe that police are actually legally allowed to lie during an interrogation: