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AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

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141–150 of 257 posts

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#141

Amazon has for years been stealing from merchants on their platform and AWS is just another part of their platform. They are everything we caution people against when they depend on a single API like being a superfluous Twitter client getting crushed, just a much, much larger API. In Mongo's unfortunate case they couldn't stop people from deploying to EC2 before Amazon determined it was worth stealing, but it doesn't…

[Meta warning] This comment is being downvoted because of the incendiary language, but it is actually quite insightful. I wish the author changed some of the words used :(

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#142
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So credit for a phrase? Neither invented the actual strategy.

Well, Einstein didn't invent Relativity but he gets credit for describing it.....

So every discussion involving relativity has to mention Einstein even when it's not germane?

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#143

Agreed, the dream of a megacap open source company is dead. Mongodb shows this, the Unity fiasco (I'm surprised nobody has put the two together) shows this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18874400 Guys, charge for your work. Don't place the economic value of your company to be ancillary to your product. That just invites another company that has that ancillary as their core competency to come and do it much bet…

> Don't place the economic value of your company to be ancillary to your product.

In other words: Don't do open core?

Dual licensing, more than any other common open source business model besides paid development, maintains the link between value of software produced and value for which customers pay. If a customer can't use the software under its public license, perhaps because the license requires release of code they want to keep closed, they pay for a license. The value of the software they become able to use, under paid license, sets the price you pay. Meanwhile, all the development work the vendor's people do goes into the product for which customers pay a price.

The article seems to imply that dual licensing is all or the crux of Mongo's business model, when it's only a relatively small part of their package offering. That can be hard to see, since both under AGPL and under the new SSPL, Mongo's choice of public license doesn't prevent developers from creating closed, proprietary applications using Mongo as data store. As they seem to intend it, Mongo dual licensing covers only platform developers who offer Mongo itself as-a-service to application developers. I hear tell the company has actually spent substantial time sending letters to users clarifying that they didn't need to buy a separate license to use Mongo in their closed apps under AGPL.

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#144
post #14

Two comments: Firstly, the discussion at the front about the music industry is quite insightful, but I'd go further - they didn't want to sell convenience at first. Used to the physical embodiment of recordings rather than the de-materialized reality of digital music, they spent years working on mandated inconvenience through DRM and other legal actions. Always remember that if the music industry had won unopposed yo…

I realize that the idea of “Commoditizing Your Complements” has gained new life lately on HN, but let’s give credit where it’s due - Joel Spolsky in 2002. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/

Sure, but Spolsky didn’t invent the concept. The idea is probably hundreds of years old.

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parity is an open source license that should achieve the goal of contribution sharing better than the others since it's wording focuses on changes, not distribution models. https://licensezero.com/licenses/parity It also has a patent license, unlike many permissive ones. They shouldnt even qualify as open source if you can get sued under patent law for using that software. Need some patent protection in license.

> Parity is an open source license No, it isn't: https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical A few issues: > 3. Contribute software you develop, deploy, monitor, or run with this software. That goes farther than the OSI, FSF, or DFSG allows, extending into software that is not in any way derived from the licensed software. It's also not obvious from the license that it allows private modifications that aren't distri…

license-review deja vu! To recite my views:

Parity conforms to the Open Source Definition as written. "Is it open source?" and "Has OSI approved it?" are related, but distinct, questions, as acknowledged by OSI process.

OSI-approved copyleft licenses already sweep broader than derivative works of the licensed software.

OSI has approved copyleft terms requiring contribution back of private changes.

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> megacap open source company Isn't this by itself an oxymoron? Open source isn't shouldn't be one's marketing stunt to gain attention, if you want to charge your software make it proprietary and charge people for license. Using open source as a last resort bait isn't cool. My only jab at Amazon is that they should give back their code to the community or they need to be forced to do so, not that they can't make mone…

The problem is the licenses suck. Parity and Prosper solve these problems with Parity covering your use case: https://licensezero.com/

I recently published my first, draft attempt at an SSPL-style license, too: https://writing.kemitchell.com/2019/01/12/Shared-Component-L...

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#147
So its like Mongo is being eaten by AWS in terms of its service offerings after it gains mindshare as DocumentDB is essentially a swap-out replacement for larger companies. That somehow smells to me as it erodes funding from its foundation in some way. I don't know.

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#148
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud. Actually, we do precisely this. Google contributes heavily to Linux, KVM, LLVM, and so on in addition to the open source projects we launched (Android, Chromium, Kubernetes to name some popular ones). Our marketing team decided to highlight this on https://cloud.google.com/open-cloud/ which does an okay job. Feedback welcome, and I’ll pass it along to them.

That's very good. Does Google also donate money to OSS projects they use? Postgres? Redis? uWSGI? Gunicorn? MySQL? I'd imagine they are heavily used in many projects within Google.

They aren't used.

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#149
post #113

I thought the speculation was that DocumentDB was running on postgres and its just the API that's compatible. Open source might have played a roll but wouldn't this move from amazon be just as possible with a closed source API?

I thought so too, it's similar on how BigTable also supports the HBase APIs.

Re: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source

#150
post #124

It is a good read, with good insights. The conclusion - "This tradeoff is inescapable" is true only to the extent that a new model for open source does not arise. Stepping back a couple thousand feet, open source is an amazing thing - a bunch of people alone or in collaboration, building great things which other people then use to build other ... etc. If we can find a way to sustain this it would be great. It is to m…

I see arguments like this a fair bit, and I'd like to explain why I'm not at all convinced. Your position is entirely predicated on the assumption that we must protect Open Source companies above the freedom of users/developers, which does not fit my beliefs on what FOSS exists to do. If MongoDB Corp goes away because everyone is using the AWS version, I would be sad to see an Open Source company end, and would feel…

Good points, and I may not have said this well, (and here's the obligatory but ) but... - I am not proposing to "protect OSS companies over the freedom of ...". Rather I am attempting to explore a way to provide a boundary between the entire OSS community (users/developers, etc) and those companies that attempt to exploit that community. As others have pointed out, there are many companies that make a contribution to open source on a generous basis - Microsoft, even FaceBook by golly. - I don't think the distinction there is "Big Bad Cloud", it is between those who help build and maintain open source and those who exploit it.

The goal to me is that the people who have created the incredible thing we call OSS should have a reasonable expectation of sharing in the benefits.

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