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China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

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Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#131
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was already a convicted drug trafficker. I don’t see any indication that his original 15-year sentence was improper. It is possible that he was falsely convicted, of course, but I don’t know that this is more likely in China than elsewhere. Suddenly changing his sentence to death is rather suspicious, but at least for me it doesn’t make a huge difference compared to a 15-year sentence. Random anecdote: I just got…

Either China is doing this so they can have something to retreat on that seems gracious and careful (i.e., it's a complete ploy) or they're completely misreading Canadian sentiment. Canadians tend to give and give and bend and bend, but it really comes to it they snap in a way that I don't think the Chinese understand. We have way more leverage over China than they have over us. We sell them commodities. They sell us…

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Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you're not an organized drug trafficker. Also our media is susceptible to surfacing up anti-China pieces so it'll skew perceptions. I think it could be healthy to visit to get a different perspective other than "that evil brainwashed country on the other side" that I feel is very pervasive. It's an interesting place to visit if you feel like you want to go to a different planet. Though the fact people are…

You don't need to be a drug smuggler to be held as a political hostage there. Look at the other links in this thread of other people being snatched as hostages for far less. In a country without rule of law it's trivial to fabricate some excuse to grab someone if you want to. Your only recourse is to not go there at all, as whether you get snatched if you are there is outside your control. "Don't smuggle drugs" isn't…

Especially in a country that is currently holding hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of its own citizens as political hostages. You don't have to be a foreigner to be subject to capricious arrest and imprisonment in China.

Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always had a pleasant experience returning home. I travel 200 days in a year and never have I had a bad experience during US Immigration. In fact, I look forward to “Welcome home” from an officer although now it’s more expedited with the automated passport control and they hardly take more than 20 seconds to let you go. I am curious of your bad experience, can you tell us more? Edit: I do not look like a typical…

You are uniquely lucky person and probably by other responses you can see how rare is experience like yours. While I never had huge problems on the border, it is always unpleasant experience and what they can do to you is so overproportional to things you can be seen at fault. My mother in law sneaked an orange in our suitcase, for the kids. I was charged $150 or $300(not sure anymore) for it and put on some list. Th…

Right, they’re usually not outright bad, but they’re certainly not welcoming. To put it in perspective, I’d much rather go to the DMV than go through American immigration controls, and the DMV workers are way nicer.

Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at risk of sounding like an edgy libertarian, what do you think is the difference between a government and a gang with internal rules?

Properly governments operate by the consent of those they govern. Gangs rule territory and the people within it almost strictly by violence. The closest similar in governments is a dictatorship, which must rule by the constant arbitrary application of violence to keep people terrified. A proper government operates by the peaceful consent - representative government, democratic systems, constitutional rights protectio…

"The US doesn't need to kill everyone in Canada and take what they have, in order for the US to be prosperous or to maintain US sovereignty and power; the same goes for the relations..."

100 million+ Native Americans and the millions of "Scramble for Africa" victims would've loved that treatment... hard to call a group a "proper government" after we spend 4-5 centuries stealing everything around the planet that isn't nailed down and at the tailend outlaw the "gang traits" mainly because we are now economically/militarily dominant enough to safely do so.

A true push for "proper government" domestically and globally would require a lot of reparations that we are not willing to pay (would probably bankrupt us if we tried).

Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Properly governments operate by the consent of those they govern. Gangs rule territory and the people within it almost strictly by violence. The closest similar in governments is a dictatorship, which must rule by the constant arbitrary application of violence to keep people terrified. A proper government operates by the peaceful consent - representative government, democratic systems, constitutional rights protectio…

you had to use the qualifier "proper" four times in that comment, to the point where it's basically a no true scotsman argument. the "proper government" you describe is a pretty specific kind that has really only existed at scale in the west for a few hundred years. states in the rest of the world and through most of history seem to satisfy most of your criteria for gangs. i admit it's a silly argument to claim there…

Of course I used proper numerous times, it was pre-emptive. I did that on purpose, because it's pointing to the ideal. If I just said government generically, someone would chime in and point out Stalin or North Korea etc. and then declare my entire point to be wrong due to worst case examples.

It does favor Western constitutional systems, they have worked very well overall and they're overwhelmingly and objectively superior in quality of life and happiness results. They've also tended to dramatically outperform other systems on income and wealth production, at all wealth brackets. People don't want to live in Myanmar, North Korea, Zimbabwe or Venezuela, they want to live in Sweden, Finland, Australia, Denmark, Germany, Canada etc.

There are very, very few cases where this doesn't hold. Pick nearly any metric. Japan and South Korea both adopted Western style systems, the results speak for themselves compared to most other nations in Asia.

GDP per capita leaders (a decent proxy for overall economic development): Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Ireland, US, Denmark, Australia, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, Finland, Canada, Germany, Belgium, New Zealand, Israel, France, UK, Japan, Italy, South Korea, Spain

It's dramatic to say the least. They're all using Western style systems of government.

The outlier list: Singapore, Qatar, UAE. Total population: 17 million, with two of those being energy states.

There are very few exceptions, with Singapore being among a tiny list of those that has been a bit at odds with traditional liberal democratic norms and still results in a high quality of life in most respects.

I wouldn't use Stalin's reign of terror and dictatorship as the role model for good government behavior or the ideal to pursue. Qualifying by saying "proper" is a necessity. I don't consider Stalin's approach to be a proper government in any regard. I'm skeptical that ruling solely through violence can be reasonably considered governing.

Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So my generalized advice is to comply with the law In a country where millions of people are held in reeducation camps for practicing the wrong religion, the "law" as written is a joke. From friends living their, it's impossible to actually strictly follow what's on the books, particularly for foreigners. You have to know the current expectations, what's being enforced by the local government etc... What matters isn…

Is there any country where it is not somewhat common for foreigners to work there illegally without being punished, and also for those foreign workers to occasionally get caught and deported for it?

That's not my point. The point is that in a country like China following the law as written is not a defense, and it's likely not even possible.

Your best bet is to keep your head down and follow common practices.

Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#138
post #39
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was already a convicted drug trafficker. I don’t see any indication that his original 15-year sentence was improper. It is possible that he was falsely convicted, of course, but I don’t know that this is more likely in China than elsewhere. Suddenly changing his sentence to death is rather suspicious, but at least for me it doesn’t make a huge difference compared to a 15-year sentence. Random anecdote: I just got…

You don't think there is a big difference between 15 years in prison and the death penalty? You still have a lot of time left in life after 15 years so it is major difference.

Perhaps as somebody who travels in China, apologizing for China in this way makes him feel safer?

Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#139
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been through many times as white British person (both as a visitor and on various visas) and have never had a bad experience. I'm not denying that people do have bad experiences. But I find it kind of hard to believe that as a US citizen, you've never once had an experience of re-entering the country that didn't involve the customs agent asking you a couple of simple questions and then sending you on your way.

That is exactly what the experience is most of the time. It’s unpleasant because they’re not nice and they have way too much power, but it’s not a big deal. Again, my point is not that it’s completely awful, but rather that this minor unpleasantness still manages to be the worst thing on these trips.

I guess I don't understand what level of "niceness" you're expecting. Most of the time they've been friendly and polite (to me). Given that they're humans doing a basically crappy job, I don't expect any more than that.

Re: China sentences Canadian man to death in drug case linked to Huawei row

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at risk of sounding like an edgy libertarian, what do you think is the difference between a government and a gang with internal rules?

Properly governments operate by the consent of those they govern. Gangs rule territory and the people within it almost strictly by violence. The closest similar in governments is a dictatorship, which must rule by the constant arbitrary application of violence to keep people terrified. A proper government operates by the peaceful consent - representative government, democratic systems, constitutional rights protectio…

Historically governments absolutely did need to kill people abroad to exist. The US has fought wars of independence and territory, it's had a war with britain, canada, and the mexico (spain). It's just that now we have agreed upon turf lines. In other places of the world where no such agreement exists, governments are still killing people.
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