Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets • Hacker News Board

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#141

Post by dsfyu404ed » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

crowbahr wrote: post #2

Very interesting reading the obstacles faced by the black market drug trade and how they're overcoming them. It seems like the producer layer is most susceptible to penetration as it is essentially identical to most gangs. It's entirely glossed over here but procuring the product seems like a difficult problem for an anonymized distributor: How do you make sure the product gets to your support layers? As interesting…

>As interesting as it all is, it's also very concerning for Law Enforcement. While petty things like drugs don't really worry me much, the advances in the anonymized distributed networks like this do mean that things that previously required big budgets of national intelligence agencies become easier for common malcontents to use.

Last years state only tech is next years commercial tech. Once upon a time only the clergy were literate, now everyone can read and write whatever they want. Once upon a time the state could control the news. Now anyone with an internet connection can publish stuff. Once upon a time only major powers had tanks and artillery now every podunk warlord has them. Once upon a time only superpowers sent things into space. Now companies are doing it and making a profit. Once upon a time only the three letter agencies could bug a room. Now anyone can buy pinhole cameras for $5.

Trying to stand in the way of that is just stupid. You can't stop the long slow march of technological progress. At best you can quarantine off some small dystopia that you control.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#142

Post by jessaustin » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

selestify wrote: post #92

mindslight wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal networks do benefit from a bread-and-butter businesses like drug distribution. These innovations likely wouldn't be taking place at all if altering one's own consciousness with substances hadn't been criminalized - when the law is made to be at odds with society, society adapts to being at odds with the law. But unlike say murder, "identity theft" isn't some serious crime - it's in the same basket as "war on…

How could identity theft need fixed?

One "extreme" way would be for debts to require better documentation in order to be collectible. E.g. the credit card company would have to have an authenticated video of the debtor stating "I am Jane Doe and as of this date, January 14 2019, I owe "Capital One" five hundred dollars." Stealing social security numbers wouldn't be enough to accomplish "identity theft", if that were the requirement.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#143

Post by wolco » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

gammateam wrote: post #74

joshstrange wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested, do you have some examples of what kinds of products you are talking about?

odd goods like you might find in craiglist's for sale section. shared passwords or accounts for streaming websites. books. paintings. collectibles. there are often good deals on any dark net marketplace that pops up. All the way back to Silk Road 1.0. cheaper than listing on ebay.

Without the ebay protections in place it should be cheaper or it would make little sense to use them.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#144

Post by sigmaprimus » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #140

sigmaprimus wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war on drugs is also a big contributor to the LEGAL gangs such as police,distric attornies, defence attorneys, prison officials and worst of all judges. Definitely an industrial economic complex similar to the Military Industrial Complex.

>The war on drugs is also a big contributor to the LEGAL gangs such as police,distric attornies, defence attorneys, prison officials and worst of all judges. I agree with your sentiment but I find it odd that you think judges are the worst. Of all the people in the system judges are probably the least worst because they don't have as many incentives to do things that are bad for society but good for them personally t…

Based on your measure of what makes them "most or least worst" you may be correct, but I disagree with the premise that whether or not their motives are virtuous makes a difference. The fact is judges rule over the system and that in itself make them the worst of the bunch, and actually the fact that they have less incentives yet continue to enable such a broken system to hurt people might be the best reason they are the worst.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#145

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

tyre wrote: post #78

wpietri wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing why this would particularly reduce violence. Some gang violence isn't about drug sales, but the same sort of territorial control that nation-states like to fight over too. And for the violence that is about drug sales, I'm not seeing why that wouldn't continue. Dead drops are just as local as corners are, and there's just as much incentive to fight over business as there was previously.

In the current system, you have to have dealers hanging out on the corners. To take territory, you shoot at the dealers and either kill them or scare them away. In this system, you have drops. How does a rival gang know where they are? They'd have to buy the product to discover the drop and drops shouldn't be used multiple times. They could watch a user find one, but then that drop wouldn't be used again so they coul…

It's not clear to me how much gang violence is specifically driven by fights over corners, rather than other kinds of inter-gang fighting. But let's assume it's significant.

I think it's very unlikely a drug business can get to scale without reusing drops; the cost of scouting a good drop is significant, and the number is finite. Regardless, the value of a drop declines the farther it is from customers and from the dealers who supply the drop. So in practice, gangs will still have an incentive to claim turf and to harm other dealers using drops on their turf.

Even if that somehow doesn't happen, they'll still have the same strong competitive incentives. So they'll be very much inclined, as now, to discover rivals and take over their business through violence.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#146

Post by stef25 » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #56

bittermang wrote: post #25

The elephant in the room that this article highlights, but never addresses. A mobile phone has become a de facto a requirement for illegal commerce, as described, and to me presents a pretty huge single point of failure. And yes, I know, EVERYBODY has a phone. But I don't. Why would I want to carry a police officer in my pocket? Especially if I'm a criminal.

That's why you'd use a burner.

Impossible here in Belgium now since the terror attacks.

Tourists are having a hard time buying sim cards when they come here. Don't even know if it's possible at all.

Dealers don't rotate their numbers so much any more, so I was told.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#147

Post by dsfyu404ed » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

sigmaprimus wrote: post #144

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The war on drugs is also a big contributor to the LEGAL gangs such as police,distric attornies, defence attorneys, prison officials and worst of all judges. I agree with your sentiment but I find it odd that you think judges are the worst. Of all the people in the system judges are probably the least worst because they don't have as many incentives to do things that are bad for society but good for them personally t…

Based on your measure of what makes them "most or least worst" you may be correct, but I disagree with the premise that whether or not their motives are virtuous makes a difference. The fact is judges rule over the system and that in itself make them the worst of the bunch, and actually the fact that they have less incentives yet continue to enable such a broken system to hurt people might be the best reason they are…

They don't have the incentive to ruin people's lives to game their performance metrics (like prosecutors do). They don't have incentive to make much to do over nothing to justify their budget (like cops do). They don't have incentive to keep people in the system as long as possible to milk money from them and the state (like the prison system does). They don't have incentive to perpetuate the war on drugs to sell crap we don't need like tasers (police abuse them) and post-release monitoring (an overpriced joke that plays fast and loose with people's lives).

The bad incentive for judges seems to be that most of them have a desire to not rock the boat too much which is pretty benign compared to all the other actors who go out of their way to perpetuate and further the status quo because they materially benefit from it.

I find it hard to fault the judges for apathetically presiding over a flawed system when every other group you mentioned is doubling down to further that system.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#148

Post by golergka » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

tawm wrote: post #130

golergka wrote: post #127

Once again, I'm completely surprised how behind is western dark market world compared to Russia in that regard. Tor-based marketplaces with dead drops in parks and around the city have been around since 2013 and are now the only practical way to buy any drugs. Telegram channels have been widely used since at least 2015. Any city park has police squads patrolling the exits at night - they search people, open up your p…

Thank you for this valuable comment. It is highly likely that police would go for the lower hanging fruit of buyers instead of sellers in a system so opaque and decentralized. The old thinking of "what could happen, they only want the big guys anyway" should have no place in OpSec. And when information on these networks is so hard to come by to begin with, a buyer being busted is very desirable. The way I see this "e…

It's always been like that here - the police departments that were supposed to fight drug trade basically overtook it. So why would they arrest their own employees when they can close their quota with drug users instead?

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#149

Post by stef25 » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

sigmaprimus wrote: post #48

My biggest problem with using the Darknet, messaging apps, or old school methods such as dial a dope or hitting up the guy on the street corner to buy drugs is the same. How can I really trust someone willing to break the rules and sell drugs or other non legal goods? You lay down with dogs you get fleas!! Last thing I would want is to eat, smoke or snort something from someone I have never met even if they have a 5…

Quality in online markets is better than from your dial-a-dope guy.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#150

Post by divbyzer0 » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #140

sigmaprimus wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war on drugs is also a big contributor to the LEGAL gangs such as police,distric attornies, defence attorneys, prison officials and worst of all judges. Definitely an industrial economic complex similar to the Military Industrial Complex.

>The war on drugs is also a big contributor to the LEGAL gangs such as police,distric attornies, defence attorneys, prison officials and worst of all judges. I agree with your sentiment but I find it odd that you think judges are the worst. Of all the people in the system judges are probably the least worst because they don't have as many incentives to do things that are bad for society but good for them personally t…

Judges (like any actor) can be corrupted and benefit by the for-profit system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal