Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets • Hacker News Board

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#91

Post by bigiain » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 5:30 AM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #85

bigiain wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Old saw"? I remember that quote being new, it's not _that_ old... It's from 2003. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/681-the-future-is-already-h...

Sit down. You're not going to like what I'm about to say. This is going to start happening to you (us, really) more and more. Things that happened in the 00's happened a 'long time ago' to a larger and larger group of loud people with Internet access. People who can drink legally were born in '98. What's up with that shit? https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Gibson#Quotes has a citation for him saying it in '99 and…

Yeah yeah. I know...

And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids and your damned dog...

-- Old Man Big from The Haunted Amusement Park

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#92

Post by selestify » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 5:32 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #44

monotone666 wrote: post #37

Dead drops can’t compete with USPS. They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession. All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine. Millions of people use dark net marketplaces. The war on drugs has fueled their growth and more serious crimes like identity theft have benefited from it.

Criminal networks do benefit from a bread-and-butter businesses like drug distribution. These innovations likely wouldn't be taking place at all if altering one's own consciousness with substances hadn't been criminalized - when the law is made to be at odds with society, society adapts to being at odds with the law. But unlike say murder, "identity theft" isn't some serious crime - it's in the same basket as "war on…

How could identity theft need fixed?

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#93

Post by selestify » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 5:35 AM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #57

crowbahr wrote: post #2

Very interesting reading the obstacles faced by the black market drug trade and how they're overcoming them. It seems like the producer layer is most susceptible to penetration as it is essentially identical to most gangs. It's entirely glossed over here but procuring the product seems like a difficult problem for an anonymized distributor: How do you make sure the product gets to your support layers? As interesting…

Since you are primed on the question. You should read Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge. It's a near-future sci-fi book that tackles these sorts of questions. As a bit of a "spoiler" his solution is a covenant with the citizens. The government will hack all of our computers, will own the IME equivalents of every machine, and in return they will only use this power to hunt down terrorists and mass murderers, people who are…

How could the citizens trust the government to do only that?

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#94

Post by debaserab2 » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 5:38 AM UTC

tribby wrote: post #45

monotone666 wrote: post #37

Dead drops can’t compete with USPS. They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession. All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine. Millions of people use dark net marketplaces. The war on drugs has fueled their growth and more serious crimes like identity theft have benefited from it.

> All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine. well, that's what the end user sees, but we can't pretend to know what happens behind the scenes from a data perspective, and how that data might be used in the future. > They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession. this is not true. only first-class mail (13oz…

13oz is well over what casual users order for most drugs. I'd bet the vast majority of orders are under that size.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#95

Post by selestify » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 5:41 AM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #82

CamperBob2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a few holes in the scheme as outlined in the article. The author asserts that dead drops are better than post office boxes because they're harder to surveil, but what keeps law enforcement from signing up their own personnel as distributors? Then it's just a matter of staking out their own dead drop and arresting whoever shows up. This is why the first rule of opsec has always been, "Involve as few pe…

It's not just the cops that will be surveilling a dead drop. You don't think a heroin addict who couldn't come up with the money for their next buy isn't going to go check every dead drop they ever bought at on the off chance that there is something there? I mean, just thinking of the old espionage meaning of dead drop, if you have dead drops or safe houses or secret meeting locations that you could only use once a y…

Good point, I haven't seen anyone else mention the addict angle other than you.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#96

Post by wbl » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 5:42 AM UTC

yyx wrote: post #36

bittermang wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chat networks do. As well as several of the methods outlined for protecting/locating the dead drops. WiFi hotspots, bluetooth beacons, etc.

You'd love to know that Telegram works on PC too.

What is the going price for a Telegram 0-day again?

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#97

Post by dahdum » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 5:48 AM UTC

selestify wrote: post #93

SolarNet wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you are primed on the question. You should read Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge. It's a near-future sci-fi book that tackles these sorts of questions. As a bit of a "spoiler" his solution is a covenant with the citizens. The government will hack all of our computers, will own the IME equivalents of every machine, and in return they will only use this power to hunt down terrorists and mass murderers, people who are…

How could the citizens trust the government to do only that?

A strong judiciary, high bar to change the law, and harsh accountability.

Still a fine line to walk.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#98

Post by Wingman4l7 » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 6:03 AM UTC

debaserab2 wrote: post #94

tribby wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine. well, that's what the end user sees, but we can't pretend to know what happens behind the scenes from a data perspective, and how that data might be used in the future. > They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession. this is not true. only first-class mail (13oz…

13oz is well over what casual users order for most drugs. I'd bet the vast majority of orders are under that size.

Also, stamped mail (untracked, stamps can be bought with cash) can be dropped off anonymously at USPS blue postal boxes if it is 13 oz or under.

Orders over 13 oz could simply be split into multiple sub-13 oz shipments, although then that means a possible increased risk of detecting a package.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#99

Post by nopacience » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 6:08 AM UTC

I get the idea. However if someone does this, it means 99% they trade something prohibited by the law.

> Now, goods are hidden in publicly accessible places like parks and the location is given to the customer on purchase.

Then the merchant can wait and see who picks the package. The merchant might be someone with a machete.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#100

Post by ianamartin » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 6:18 AM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #57

crowbahr wrote: post #2

Very interesting reading the obstacles faced by the black market drug trade and how they're overcoming them. It seems like the producer layer is most susceptible to penetration as it is essentially identical to most gangs. It's entirely glossed over here but procuring the product seems like a difficult problem for an anonymized distributor: How do you make sure the product gets to your support layers? As interesting…

Since you are primed on the question. You should read Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge. It's a near-future sci-fi book that tackles these sorts of questions. As a bit of a "spoiler" his solution is a covenant with the citizens. The government will hack all of our computers, will own the IME equivalents of every machine, and in return they will only use this power to hunt down terrorists and mass murderers, people who are…

That doesn't sound like near-future fiction. That sounds like 20 years ago but without the part that the government promises to only do this for "good" reasons.