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If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

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Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#211

Post by wolfgke »

hyperpallium wrote: post #180
wolfgke wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't this backwards? If you're just accepting the lecturer's word as dogma, I would argue you're not really gaining an education at all. The process of being convinced and having doubts about the material resolved improves critical thinking and improves understanding of the underlying material as well. Maybe I think differently from you because I come from Germany. But I don't think this is backwards. I openly adm…

> Why are you enrolled in the degree course if you are critical of it instead of wanting to learn the material? Maybe you want to learn why it is true? Since Euclid, mathematics is about proof i.e. being convinced. If you really understand the material, you see it must be true - and need not blindly accept it. What is taught in high school and many university courses is not mathematics, but how to use it. Like how to…

> Maybe you want to learn why it is true?

> Since Euclid, mathematics is about proof i.e. being convinced. If you really understand the material, you see it must be true - and need not blindly accept it.

I agree. Learning mathematics means learning the proofs. This is pure learning and has nothing to do with critical thinking (at least to me and I am a mathematician).

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#212

Post by kkylin »

dan-robertson wrote: post #209
emmelaich wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the context reflects the origins of CS departments. They are always were part of physics school and later electrical engineering. All the famous CS people over say 60 started in physics or EE.

This might be true in America but in Europe it is common for the CS department to have been an offshoot of the mathematics department.

In the US you find both. More commonly CS came from electrical engineering, but you do find some departments that started as part of mathematics. In any case, as other commenters said, early "computer scientists" often came from physics, math, electrical engineering, etc. (Abelson & Sussman themselves had PhDs in mathematics.)

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#213

Post by kod »

AlexeyBrin wrote: post #117
kod wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the best book I've found for actually teaching people how to solve problems using programming, rather than just learning semantics. I use it for continuing education at a company, the only complaint I've heard from people is that it's very deliberately paced. I do wish there was an equivalent that used a statically typed language, because the actual approach is very fundamentally based on types. I've spoken with…

> I do wish there was an equivalent that used a statically typed language Not exactly an equivalent, but a very good book (that uses a statically typed language) is "Elements of ML Programming" by Ullmann.

Yeah, that's a good book, but as you noted it falls under teaching a language, not so much teaching how to think.

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#214

Post by tshanmu »

rz2k wrote: post #158
tshanmu wrote: post #9

I can fully recommend HtDP for beginning programming - tried various options for my 11 year old. I needed it to involve very little help from me - tried some scratch, mit50x, both which helped but did not spark and sustain interest. Then we came across https://www.edx.org/course/how-code-simple-data-ubcx-htc1x - love it and does not need any help from me :) planning to move on to https://www.edx.org/course/how-code-c…

Do you mean the online HarvardX CS50 course? I started it when MOOCs were first appearing, and it includes Scratch. It looked very enthusiastic and buzz-worthy to me (which can be very good for a lot of people). However, past students doing a music and dance routine on stage about how exciting it had been, and the first lectures concluding with announcements of pizza parties with Facebook recruiters was too much for…

my bad - yes, I meant the Harvard CS50 course. Thanks for MITx 6.002 and DartmouthX C Programming with Linux - The DarmouthX one would be a good second course if the interest still continues.

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#215

Post by jammygit »

vanderZwan wrote: post #81
Apocryphon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that’s where Google- and all of the tech companies aping Google- got their interviewing style from.

Hah! I do wonder if it isn't simply human nature though, something we actively have to unlearn.

Google is made up of high test achievers who move on to decide how to test applicants. Its self perpetuating in that casez not human nature

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#216

Post by acbart »

ng12 wrote: post #160
acbart wrote: post #84

Everyone on here is very excited about HTDP. You are mostly very smart people, and not representative of the typical CS student starting off. Many of you are driven and have rich STEM backgrounds that you draw upon. Therefore, I want to point out that there is no substantial evidence to prove most of the claims of "success" that the HTDP community claims, with regards to novice learners. There are certainly people wh…

I will say that the people who develop HTDP are the some of the people who spend the most time writing about pedagogy in computing education. Felleisen in particularly has written a lot on the subject: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/Thoughts/Developing_Dev... > The curriculum is too artificial and disjoint from the rest of their CS degree I would then argue the problem is the rest of the CS degree. Whether HTDP…

> I will say that the people who develop HTDP are the some of the people who spend the most time writing about pedagogy in computing education.

I don't think that's really true. Yes, the HTDP community, and Felleisen in particular, write a lot about Pedagogy. But Mark and Mike have them beat handily. Thinking about the CS Ed blogs I read[1], I don't think any HTDP folks have that much compared to others.

[1] https://acbart.github.io/2018/06/25/cs-ed-blogs/

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#217

Post by kwhitefoot »

kkylin wrote: post #127
craigsmansion wrote: post #16

"that make me jump through intellectual hoops made of mathematics" There is actually surprisingly little mathematics in SICP. What is does have are mechanisms that are then analysed and modelled, after which the mental model is adapted so it can be turned into computational model that is a faithful representation. Some of the presented mechanisms are mathematical in nature, but you don't need a mathematical backgroun…

I agree with everything you say. Just want to add that SICP had a context: it was designed to be an introductory computer science course designed for university engineering students (including CS), almost all of whom take calulus in their first year, if not earlier. This was probably a valid assumption back in the day, but clearly there is a more diverse audience now. Anyway, I absolutely agree SICP was never about S…

> almost all of whom take calulus in their first year,

What? How can anyone do any meaningful engineering without calculus?

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#218

Post by zeroname »

cryptonector wrote: post #203
zeroname wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While it’s easy for a computer scientist to make the jump to programmer with just a little guidance, it’s much harder to go the other way. I don't think it's actually that easy for a computer "scientist" to unlearn all the idealistic stuff that can actually be counter-productive in a real-world programming environment, particularly if they're enamored with languages like LISP or Haskell. These people easily get dep…

Rust is becoming very popular. What is Rust though, if not a strict (i.e., non-lazy) Haskell with different syntax, linear types, and less polymorphism? I think a CS type who loves Haskell will be right at home with Rust. Or modern C++. Just as a CS type who loves Lisp will also be able to make the move to Rust or modern C++. Java, maybe not so much :)

> Rust is becoming very popular.

For actual jobs? I don't see any evidence for that.

Re: If not SICP, then what? Maybe HTDP?

#219

Post by passthejoe »

yyrrll wrote: post #110
superquest wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This last week I took an in-person class where we covered almost all of the book: https://dabeaz.com/SICP.html The instructor David Beazley very skillfully weeded out all the non-essential parts and added one amazing exercise where we implemented the lambda calculus and, funny enough, the ycombinator. Highly recommend it for anyone who desires to learn this material, can't find the time, and is willing to pay $2500 f…

link broken, gets 404

Try this. It works: https://dabeaz.com
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