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Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

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Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#91

Post by draven »

twblalock wrote: post #76
jib wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My French contract had 2 months notice and a non compete option for the employer, where they had the option to pay me 75% of the salary for 2 years to enforce the non compete. That kind of non competes I don’t mind.

I would mind it a lot, because when I leave a company I'll be making more than I do now, not 75% of what I do now.

You can still work in a company not directly competing with your previous employer and get the compensation.

I just had a quick look (I never had one), non-competes without compensation are illegal in France.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#92

Post by Fins »

djsumdog wrote: post #87
nacho_weekend wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were they trading companies in chi? Worked with them in the past and that industry is ruthless in abiding their noncompetes because there’s enough people who want in the industry.

No actually. One was document management and the other health/wellness. Here's some of my own observations of tech culture in different regions: https://penguindreams.org/blog/tech-culture-shock-from-ameri...

Interesting, I've only had one interview as long as you describe in Chicago.

I am not sure if there are fewer great engineers in Chicago; I have certainly met lots of people who were as good as anyone I've met in SV and that I've learned a lot from. I think it might be that (Midwestern sensibility and all) they aren't chasing the latest shiny thing as much, and often work in some more boring business domain, getting things done rather than "changing the world".

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#93

Post by mavelikara »

snovv_crash wrote: post #83
twblalock wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would mind it a lot, because when I leave a company I'll be making more than I do now, not 75% of what I do now.

Getting 75% of your salary to do nothing for 2 years is the opportunity of a lifetime - travel the world, get a Masters degree, find a low CoL area and bank 90% of it while contributing to open source projects, the options are endless.

> Getting 75% of your salary to do nothing for 2 years is the opportunity of a lifetime

The examples you listed makes me ask this. Imagine your parents, while raising you, given this option of having their pay reduced by 25%. How likely would the options you listed have been an "opportunity of a lifetime" to them?

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#94

Post by loeg »

twblalock wrote: post #3

Banning noncompete agreements is something California has been doing right since 1872 when they were first banned. Another thing California does right is refusing to honor noncompete agreements from other states.

> Another thing California does right is refusing to honor noncompete agreements from other states.

They might refuse but the originating state companies have caught on and claim jurisdiction out of CA.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#95

Post by ngngngng »

Do non competes ever come back to bite you? I signed a non compete at a previous company, and several of coworkers left to a direct competitor. No one cares, no one ever heard anything about it.

My current company tried to get me to sign a non compete by leaving it on my desk. I dropped it in a drawer and now everyone's forgot about it. No one is ever going to remember to get me to sign it. The main thing that weirded me out about this one is it also said I can't recommend that any of my current coworkers come work with me for something like 2 years after I leave the company.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#96

Post by dunpeal »

ngngngng wrote: post #95

Do non competes ever come back to bite you? I signed a non compete at a previous company, and several of coworkers left to a direct competitor. No one cares, no one ever heard anything about it. My current company tried to get me to sign a non compete by leaving it on my desk. I dropped it in a drawer and now everyone's forgot about it. No one is ever going to remember to get me to sign it. The main thing that weirde…

https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-sues-former-employee-after-...

https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-sues-former-aws-vp-non-...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-lawsuit/amazon-sue...

https://gizmodo.com/amazon-sued-by-former-human-resources-ad...

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#97

Post by throwdaddy425 »

djsumdog wrote: post #49

I've always refused to sign any contract with a non-compete. In every case, the employer has removed or voided it. The only exceptions were jobs in Chicago, and I walked away from two different jobs because they couldn't change their contract. I often don't even bring it up during the interview, until I get an offer. At that point if they're not willing to negotiate my basic rights as a worker, it's not a company I w…

Are you a senior developer or architect? I can't imagine an employer would humor this with a new recruit or junior developer. A lot of larger employers also have rigid processes for onboarding new people and modifying contracts isn't always something they're willing to do.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#98

Post by kccqzy »

dunpeal wrote: post #38
paxys wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'd argue that this is one of the biggest reasons why the area was able to evolve from a couple of semiconductor companies into the world's most valuable business ecosystem. Most other states are too beholden to a few big companies and don't see how following suit will only help them over the long term.

There's research that credits the fact that SV is in California and not, for example, near Cambridge MA, to the fact that non-competes aren't enforceable in California.

I've also heard a theory from a friend that one reason SV companies develop new technology so quickly is because the free movement of employees between companies is essentially the de facto transfer of technology between companies.

Of course things like trade secrets won't be transferred, but the general skills, ideas and know-how can quickly spread from company to company. In contrast, in regions with non-competes, companies are effectively more siloed.

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#99

Post by _m96l »

cc439 wrote: post #75
_m96l wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the opposite experience. I refused to sign non-competes for all past offers that included them, and in all cases the potential employer then walked away. That happened after lengthy interview processes that lasted multiple days and cost the employer many thousands of dollars. Gives you an idea how important these non-competes are to them. I should mention these were big, powerful employers. You might be able t…

The larger the employer, the more bureacracy is involved in the hiring process. Any non-conformance to the standardized process comes with a risk of complete process failure once a corporation reaches a certain size and begins to silo off certain functional groups. I've found myself in many situations where a customer or employee requested something perfectly reasonable to settle a dispute, only for me to find there…

While this may all be true, the upshot is that as individual employees, we have zero leverage or bargaining power against these large employers.

Even now, with the great shortage of tech talent - while is repeatedly used as a justification to import an unlimited number of foreign workers - these very same large employers who complain about this shortage, do not hesitate to reject a qualified candidate who will not sign away their right to work with a "non compete".

Re: Too Many Workers Are Trapped by Non-Competes

#100

Post by dunpeal »

throwdaddy425 wrote: post #97
djsumdog wrote: post #49

I've always refused to sign any contract with a non-compete. In every case, the employer has removed or voided it. The only exceptions were jobs in Chicago, and I walked away from two different jobs because they couldn't change their contract. I often don't even bring it up during the interview, until I get an offer. At that point if they're not willing to negotiate my basic rights as a worker, it's not a company I w…

Are you a senior developer or architect? I can't imagine an employer would humor this with a new recruit or junior developer. A lot of larger employers also have rigid processes for onboarding new people and modifying contracts isn't always something they're willing to do.

I'm a senior engineer, and as I said, I was never able to bargain away a single non-compete clause.

Even with a smaller employer, you will need some bargaining power.

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