Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#121

Post by 50656E6973 » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #90

linsomniac wrote: post #57

So many people are saying "this is just further evidence of Google doing evil". Unpopular opinion: I feel like this is further evidence of Google being good stewards of user data. There are many reasons Google may want to protect this data: They don't want user backlash from revelations like this, they don't want to have to be legislated, they don't want the PR spend of having to recover from such reporting. Or it co…

Google, data point for data point, is one of the best stewards of data potentially in history. They have more information about you that they choose not to sell than you can even imagine. They literally set the high-bar for PII and other types of tracking data. The only ones who know nearly as much are Telcos and they have been openly selling and sharing all of your info to governments and shady shell corporations si…

Selling mass location data to the highest bidder is indeed extremely slimy and even a threat to "national security".

But the fact that Google (or any centralized entity) has aggregated so much detailed information on billions of people's personal lives is itself a threat to global/national security.

What happens when that data is hacked/leaked and then sold to the highest bidder (who isn't interested in advertising)? That data could be easily weaponized for a shocking/devastating attack the likes of which we have not seen since the first atomic bomb.

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#122

Post by StillBored » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #68

TACIXAT wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a difference between allowing ads to target an area and selling someone's real time location. I'm against the collection of data generally because that data can always end up in court, but Google has never given people access to my real time location.

> but Google has never given people access to my real time location. As long as your Google account remains secured and no one manages to sneak a 2nd Google Account on your phone, that is. Find My Phone is a real time tracker that can be abused e.g. by spouses or stalkers. IIRC only triggering the "audible ring" leaves a trace on the phone (a notification + the obvious sound), to check if someone used FMP for trackin…

We are talking the cell providers here, disabling GPS only slows down the initial positioning as LTE has a number of alternative ways to determine your location. That is required in places like the US were its mandated by law (E911 IIRC) that the providers are capable of providing your location to government services in real time (like 911).

So, the fact that the providers are keeping tabs on you and storing all that metadata for some government agency (cause you might be dangerous!), just means that they have discovered a way to recoup some of the investment costs. Thank your government, because the phone companies likely wouldn't have been this creative by themselves.

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#123

Post by rightbyte » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

mav3rick wrote: post #92

Despegar wrote: post #2

I mean sure. Google certainly doesn't want wireless carriers to compete with them in advertising, and everyone having access to location data from smartphones just devalues Google's own access. https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...

When they don't protest you will say Google sucks. When they do protest you say Google sucks. Bravo.

Is there a contradiction?

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#124

Post by RHSeeger » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #91

SquareWheel wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why, because they show you ads for tracked interests? Something they're quite upfront about, and allow you to opt-out of if you'd like. Is that so "evil" that it somehow outweighs the hundreds of open-source projects they've released? Or the extremely useful free-services they provide like Maps and Search? The thousands of jobs they've created in our industry? The new protocols they've released for free to the IETF?…

Actually, I don't have a large problem with them showing ads and trying to know enough about me to do so properly. I'd appreciate it if you didn't attack me over your mistaken ideas regarding my thoughts. - They release good versions of existing products, let people use it for free or cheap, and then (when all the other companies making said product type give up because they can't compete), they discard the product a…

Another example https://onemileatatime.com/google-fi-review/

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#125

Post by jklinger410 » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

50656E6973 wrote: post #121

jklinger410 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google, data point for data point, is one of the best stewards of data potentially in history. They have more information about you that they choose not to sell than you can even imagine. They literally set the high-bar for PII and other types of tracking data. The only ones who know nearly as much are Telcos and they have been openly selling and sharing all of your info to governments and shady shell corporations si…

Selling mass location data to the highest bidder is indeed extremely slimy and even a threat to "national security". But the fact that Google (or any centralized entity) has aggregated so much detailed information on billions of people's personal lives is itself a threat to global/national security. What happens when that data is hacked/leaked and then sold to the highest bidder (who isn't interested in advertising)?…

I agree. I also think we have no idea what hardware manufacturers do, or what is happening with the main cables that the 5 eyes is tapping into. Or what types of high level subpoenas and so-on have been served to Google, that they have acquiesced.

It really is a ticking time bomb.

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#126

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

dna_polymerase wrote: post #116

jankeymeulen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the majority of the voting rights is still with the founders, they may have a bit less shortsighted outlook.

I have no idea where this inherent trust in people comes from. Google has shown again and again that they are just like any other company in this system.

[deleted]

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#127

Post by rightbyte » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #86

skybrian wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is location leakage but it's clearly not the same because: - they don't get your location if you don't click on the ad. Since people don't click on ads very often, only rarely does an advertisers get a person's location, and without a name attached. - Mobile phone companies were letting people query a user's location based on their real name. How would you do that with advertising? We need to move beyond one-bi…

Website owners already have your general location based on IP - they're not getting 'leaked' any information from location-based ad targeting that isn't already available to them when you visit the site.

Geo ip doesn't have that accuracy, right? Google use GPS.

https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/2453995?hl=en "Device location: Depending on a user's location settings, we may be able to use a precise location for advertising, based on one of these sources of location data:

GPS: Accuracy varies depending on GPS signal and connection. Wi-Fi: Accuracy should be similar to the access range of a typical Wi-Fi router. Bluetooth: If Bluetooth and/or Bluetooth scanning are enabled on a device, a publicly broadcast Bluetooth signal can provide an accurate indication of location Google's cell ID (cell tower) location database: Used in the absence of Wi-Fi or GPS. Accuracy is dependent on how many cell towers are located within an area and available data, and some devices don't support cell ID location."

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#128

Post by linsomniac » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

50656E6973 wrote: post #121

jklinger410 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google, data point for data point, is one of the best stewards of data potentially in history. They have more information about you that they choose not to sell than you can even imagine. They literally set the high-bar for PII and other types of tracking data. The only ones who know nearly as much are Telcos and they have been openly selling and sharing all of your info to governments and shady shell corporations si…

Selling mass location data to the highest bidder is indeed extremely slimy and even a threat to "national security". But the fact that Google (or any centralized entity) has aggregated so much detailed information on billions of people's personal lives is itself a threat to global/national security. What happens when that data is hacked/leaked and then sold to the highest bidder (who isn't interested in advertising)?…

Are you familiar with the design of the Google systems WRT securing this data? Based on the revelations Snowden was able to do, and a similar level of familiarity with Google's security measures, it sounds like Google even has the NSA beat as far as keeping data secure. In short: Even the people doing OS and hardware level maintenance of the machines in question don't have access to this data.

But I'm on the outside looking in, someone with more hands on can probably provide more details.

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#129

Post by linsomniac » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #125

50656E6973 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling mass location data to the highest bidder is indeed extremely slimy and even a threat to "national security". But the fact that Google (or any centralized entity) has aggregated so much detailed information on billions of people's personal lives is itself a threat to global/national security. What happens when that data is hacked/leaked and then sold to the highest bidder (who isn't interested in advertising)?…

I agree. I also think we have no idea what hardware manufacturers do, or what is happening with the main cables that the 5 eyes is tapping into. Or what types of high level subpoenas and so-on have been served to Google, that they have acquiesced. It really is a ticking time bomb.

Part of my judgement about them being good stewards of the data is past reports of them encrypting all their in-flight data when they found evidence of NSA tapping of long-haul cables, and their using lawyers to push back on information requests that did not go through due process.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/googl...

Re: Google Demanded T-Mobile, Sprint Not Sell Google Fi Customers' Location Data

#130

Post by lancesells » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #65

thefounder wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as the advertising is concerned Google is no different(and so FB etc). Anyone with few bucks will know your location or better said will target you with ads. With Google they won't target only by location because as you said Google makes the OS so it knows pretty much everything about you.

Please show me where I can buy thefounder's location data from Google. Which service is that, and how much do I need to pay? I can't find it at https://www.google.com/about/products/ > better said will target you with ads. The difference between selling location data, and selling ad targeting, is the difference between actively stalking someone, and sending unsolicited spam to "Current resident" at "Every address in…

> What harm can I inflict to you, via targeted ads? Some. You can think of some creative ways to do so, but it's not a very effective way to inflict harm.

Do you see how people have weaponized social media through data? Google ads might not have been used in a nefarious way just yet but that's likely because it hasn't been thought of.