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Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

ruben.verborgh.org

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Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#21

Post by [deleted] »

amelius wrote: post #19
kodablah wrote: post #8

I think the part ignored by so many is the need to decentralize the computers into the home. I'm not talking meshes or shared resources. For the majority of use cases, we don't need distributed storage, compute, etc. Just start making these self-hosted "servers", "data pods", etc as easy to install as desktop software and make it clear that they are inaccessible when the computer is off. People that aren't already wi…

One problem is still asymmetric upload/download speeds for many (most) home connections. Often upload is 10x slower than download.

[deleted]

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#22

Post by beat »

zozbot123 wrote: post #17
wmf wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data centers and (paid) cloud vendors don't look at your data and the police can get into your home as easily as your VM.

Nope, they can't. There are reasonably-strong legal protections against police entering your home, because it's the main place where you actually have a legally-acknowledged expectation of privacy.

Most people have no real reason to be concerned about police looking at their data, even if it does somehow happen (not in America, anyway). So as a need, it's a vanishingly small market, limited to people who actually have something illegal to hide - drug business, child porn, whatever. As a want is a different thing - people, convinced to be afraid of Big Brother, want to shield themselves. But that's still not a very large market, when it comes to people paranoid enough to actually do something about it.

If I had data that I legit feared the government finding, I wouldn't be protecting it with a home server - I'd protect it by encrypting the crap out of it and storing it on a pretty generic cloud service, not in my home or anything easily traceable to me.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#23

Post by smhenderson »

amelius wrote: post #19
kodablah wrote: post #8

I think the part ignored by so many is the need to decentralize the computers into the home. I'm not talking meshes or shared resources. For the majority of use cases, we don't need distributed storage, compute, etc. Just start making these self-hosted "servers", "data pods", etc as easy to install as desktop software and make it clear that they are inaccessible when the computer is off. People that aren't already wi…

One problem is still asymmetric upload/download speeds for many (most) home connections. Often upload is 10x slower than download.

Data caps on upload as well not to mention many ISP's have terms that prevent you from running services on your account. If you want that from them you need a business account which typically costs quite a bit more. At least that's how Comcast and Verizon are in my neighborhood...

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#24

Post by jshen »

orthecreedence wrote: post #4

I've read a bit about Solid in the past, but never quite understood how it will handle different data models. Does it force social data to all look the same (as in, have a predefined set of fields)? If not, how do apps built on it interoperate? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for projects like this. I think it's wonderful. I just never really got how the apps will work with the same data without being forced into a parti…

I think the answer to some degree is RDF and the semantic data standards. It’s hard to explain them quickly, but it solves a portion of this problem.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#25

Post by qznc »

> From the above, it is clear that our primary obstacles are not technological [5]; hence Tim Berners-Lee’s call [6] to "assemble the brightest minds from business, technology, government, civil society, the arts, and academia to tackle the threats to the Web’s future". Yet at the same time, computer scientists and engineers need to deliver the technological burden of proof that decentralized personal data networks can scale globally and that they can provide people with an experience similar to that of centralized platforms.

This whole article looks like "well, the obstacles are not technological, but let me write a few pages about technology anyways".

If the obstacle are not technological, then we need non-technological solutions. So far I think GDPR is one such non-technological step towards taking back control of our personal data.

The hardest problem in my opinion is "preventing the spread of misinformation" because we essentially need a way to distinguish between malice and stupidity. Without mind-reading I do not see how this could be possible at scale.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#28

Post by zozbot123 »

beat wrote: post #22
zozbot123 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, they can't. There are reasonably-strong legal protections against police entering your home, because it's the main place where you actually have a legally-acknowledged expectation of privacy.

Most people have no real reason to be concerned about police looking at their data, even if it does somehow happen (not in America, anyway). So as a need , it's a vanishingly small market, limited to people who actually have something illegal to hide - drug business, child porn, whatever. As a want is a different thing - people, convinced to be afraid of Big Brother, want to shield themselves. But that's still not a…

Nope, you're thinking of this backwards. The people who actually have something illegal to hide might actually try to do what you're saying here, make it untraceable somehow (at non-trivial risk and expense, of course!). But if what you're worried about is more casual, warrant-less invasion of privacy by your government (that isn't motivated by something as blatantly illegal as the examples you chose), "just store it at home" is a no-brainer.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#29

Post by bluGill »

kodablah wrote: post #8

I think the part ignored by so many is the need to decentralize the computers into the home. I'm not talking meshes or shared resources. For the majority of use cases, we don't need distributed storage, compute, etc. Just start making these self-hosted "servers", "data pods", etc as easy to install as desktop software and make it clear that they are inaccessible when the computer is off. People that aren't already wi…

First someone has to make a server that is perfectly secure and lasts for 50 years without any updates. It needs to be like a thermostat from the 1950s - maybe it lacks the latest features but it still works just the same as new. I'll accept maybe it only needs to last 10 years, but that is the minimum time.

I have family to think about: I don't have time to update my servers every time some new zero-day is fixed. I'd rather pay someone else to deal with those details. My five year old is growing up time with him is far more important that fixing security holes.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#30

Post by kodablah »

sliken wrote: post #20
kodablah wrote: post #8

I think the part ignored by so many is the need to decentralize the computers into the home. I'm not talking meshes or shared resources. For the majority of use cases, we don't need distributed storage, compute, etc. Just start making these self-hosted "servers", "data pods", etc as easy to install as desktop software and make it clear that they are inaccessible when the computer is off. People that aren't already wi…

Back when mobile devices were rare, skype used p2p and was very popular and novel. But then an increasing percentage of nodes were mobile with limited power, limited bandwidth, and much less storage. Even being a member of a DHT (a nice way for distributed peers to keep track of each other) is a prohibitive from a battery life and bandwidth perspective for phones. So Microsoft moved skype to a centralized service and…

> How could decentralized applications/services be sustainable funded? If not advertising, how?

How any other open source is funded (e.g. corporate/individual donations, grants, crowdsourcing, support, ancillary products, etc). I don't believe, at least for an MVP, that much funding is needed compared the scope of some of the successfully funded open source projects that exist.

> Most importantly, why would users care about decentralized vs centralized?

They wouldn't. And ideally, beyond the annoying hoops on initial versions (e.g. discovery/identity), they shouldn't. Your software needs to win on features. A self-hosted, subscribable Reddit clone w/ chat would be a very good start.

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