How much Americans make in wages • Hacker News Board

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#161

Post by devonkim » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #84

tfigment wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are a good person. Money is really good to keep separate though at least for many people I think. I've done similar things like loaned my older brother enough to get through nursing school as he was stocking at Target at 33 and I thought this was a better path. I was better off then but not well off and this cause some strains. When he was doing better it was hard to get him to pay back anything even at 0% intere…

> Money and family can be tricky. Maybe, but on your death bed which one do you think you are going to have the most regrets about?

Abuse of this commonly held notion is what has driven my family apart to make this answer clearer - anyone that abuses familial ties for money is not family. Someone that would abuse the sacred relationship for something as material as temporary funding for selfish purposes is a person that deserves neither money nor love from me.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#162

Post by bzbarsky » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

anoncoward111 wrote: post #156

bzbarsky wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that 50-60% of the population of cities is working is probably too high. As a simple example, the third table at https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2016/t... data for New York City for 2016. Total population is 8,537,673. Population under 18 is 1,798,888. Population over 64 is 1,155,075. That's 35% of the population right there. Some of them might be working, of course. For the kids, this…

I appreciate your statistics but I'm not quite sure how they are related to our discussion. Most of the kids in NY state are living under the care and support of their parents and aren't working, therefore they shouldn't even be a factor in population/labor force participation metric. Additionally, many of the old people who aren't working shouldn't be factored in either because they are receiving quite high pensions…

The original context, as far as I can tell, was "what fraction of workers live in the high-cost metro areas?", right?

We're trying to estimate this in all sorts of indirect ways, when the real questions, which I am sure we should be able to find answers for, are:

1) How many workers are there total?

2) How many workers are there in high-cost metro areas?

What we can't easily do is derive the answer for #2 from the total population of said metro areas; it's heavily dependent on the age structure of said metro areas and the specific workforce participation rates for those areas by age.

> Therefore, as you say, the "prime age" labor force participation rate is 65%

On average across the US, plausible.

> Applying this ratio to my original numbers, 45.5 million people are laborers in the Northeast

Yes, but even in the northeast not everything is in an expensive metro area, fwiw.

> We cannot possibly say that an area like Amarillo TX, with just 100,000 laborers, is indicative of some nationally sustainable trend

On its own, sure. But there are a lot more areas like that (by count; how the population totals look is not obvious to me) than there are big expensive metro areas.

That is, you might be right in your original claim that "half the country" are in the high-cost situation, but your data is not showing that very conclusively.

That said, I would be shocked if less than 1/4 of the country is in that situation. And yes, we should be aware that these tens of millions of people exist and of their situation.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#163

Post by toasterlovin » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

eldavido wrote: post #114

tossaccount123 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

globalization only benefits the rich. They can arbitrage labor and then keep the difference in profit. The supposed lowering of cost to make up for job loss and wage reduction didn't happen

Superstar effects are a much bigger deal. Before you were the best artist / programmer / chef in your small town. Today you or your company sells to the world. #1 / #2 takes most/all, everyone else loses. Sorry but that's just the nature of the world today.

> Sorry but that's just the nature of the world today.

It doesn't have to be. The historic balance of power is that the rich need rule of law to stay rich. And rule of law requires participation of the majority. So the rich have to appease the mob in order to keep their riches (and their heads). I don't think we're anywhere near the tipping point of this equation in the U.S. But it's always there as an option of last resort for the disenfranchised.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#164

Post by toasterlovin » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

tossaccount123 wrote: post #82

walrus01 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The authors write that "the incomes of the top 1% collectively made up 11% of national income in 1980, but now constitute above 20% of national income, while the 20% of US national income that was attributable to the bottom 50% in 1980 has fallen to just 12% today. Further, "while average pre-tax income for the bottom 50% has stagnated at around $16,000 since 1980, the top 1% has experienced 300% growth in their inc…

globalization only benefits the rich. They can arbitrage labor and then keep the difference in profit. The supposed lowering of cost to make up for job loss and wage reduction didn't happen

Don't forget mass immigration.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#165

Post by toasterlovin » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #128

rayiner wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in the…

>I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in th…

> For developers, we can probably expect to get around ~10-15 days off, plus occasional holidays.

Those "occasional holidays" amount to nearly two weeks (10 business days) in the U.S. And the person you're responding to was saying that Swedes would have to get 30-something additional days off to make up for the earning discrepancy.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#166

Post by toasterlovin » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #133

peterwwillis wrote: post #113

Well let's pile some more random data onto this tire fire and jump to some conclusions. (edit: comparing 2015 to 2017) How much do Americans earn? 2015 data [1]: median household income was $52K. If you're white. If you're black, the median is $34K. So, only like, 1/3 less. Or if you're asian, the median is $72K. 2017 data [2]: median household income apparently jumps to $62k. If you're white it's $65k, black it's $4…

> If you're white. If you're black, the median is $34K. So, only like, 1/3 less. Or if you're asian, the median is $72K. Lol, that single fact makes the "white people oppress everybody else" nonsense fall on its face. I wonder why it's not often used as a rebuttal.

You're being downvoted, but if you look at a ranking of household income by ethnicity in the U.S., it's pretty clear that you're right. The highest earning ethnic group is Indian Americans. You can make the (terribly convoluted) argument that East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) are somehow white, but there's no getting around the fact that Indians are brown. At least as brown as Mexicans and probably browner (Mexicans tend to be about 40% European ancestry on average).

Here's that list for anybody who wants to take a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#167

Post by toasterlovin » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #124

natalyarostova wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, having family take care each other is a more robust and decentralized system than us all being atomized and being cared for by the state.

> more robust and decentralized system than us all being atomized and being cared for by the state. Decentralized, sure. Robust? No way. Unless they are wealthy and economically independent, your family are a small number of failures away from not being able to support you. A locally correlated failure ( i.e a plant or industry that employs many of them folds) can knock out the support system. Not to mention that unl…

Here's some robustness for you: our ancestors have been depending on their respective families since humans were a species. Whereas the oldest extant government are only several hundred years old. And many aren't even as old as my grandparents.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#168

Post by notfromhere » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

natalyarostova wrote: post #87

aaomidi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the current situation in America, there's really no other thing to do. Yes they might become codependent, but if you look at the situation realistically there's not a lot they can do to change the situation. Being there as a safety net can take a lot of mental pressure off of them.

On the other hand, having family take care each other is a more robust and decentralized system than us all being atomized and being cared for by the state.

It's not more robust. One bad accident or health bill can ruin the financial stability of an entire family. Diffusing costs across a whole nation is cheaper and more stable than diffusing costs across a handful of people who are related.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#169

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

devonkim wrote: post #161

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Money and family can be tricky. Maybe, but on your death bed which one do you think you are going to have the most regrets about?

Abuse of this commonly held notion is what has driven my family apart to make this answer clearer - anyone that abuses familial ties for money is not family. Someone that would abuse the sacred relationship for something as material as temporary funding for selfish purposes is a person that deserves neither money nor love from me.

The way I see it, there can definitely be abuses. But there is certainly a place for helping non-abusers, too. Robert Frost said "Home is the place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in." Well, family are the people who, when they genuinely need help, you have to try to give it.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#170

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #165

fzeroracer wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in th…

> For developers, we can probably expect to get around ~10-15 days off, plus occasional holidays. Those "occasional holidays" amount to nearly two weeks (10 business days) in the U.S. And the person you're responding to was saying that Swedes would have to get 30-something additional days off to make up for the earning discrepancy.

Considering that there are many Americans in poverty that get little to no time off, Swedes would be around 30-something additional days off.

How many days off per year do you think people in retail get? Not just time off they get on paper either, but time off they can take without being shamed. Hell, look at the 'unlimited pto' scam some software companies employ in order to reduce the amount of time off a developer can take.

Have you ever worked retail? Or do you know anyone that has?