Lies We Tell Kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#161

Post by iloveyouocean » Tue, May 13, 2008, 5:49 PM UTC

To a person unfamiliar with economics, accounting, math, etc. the financial markets seem magical, or at least mysterious. Prophets emerge to explain the markets, and often do so in vague and opinionated ways, that to the uninformed seem brilliant and enlightened.

Regarding this article, there are sociologists, psychologists, etc. that make a scientific/formal practice of answering questions like, 'Why do we lie to kids? What are the ramifications.'.

Where the majority of people reading pg's articles are technically proficient, our realm of knowledge generally doesn't extend into the pursuits of a sociologist/psychologist. And so those realms seem magical or mysterious to us.

Does it occur to anyone that the issues brought up in this article have probably been thoroughly studied, and well-reasoned, possibly even evidence based conclusions have been drawn, and in fact are publicly available.

In this age of information, perhaps the lie of the 'original thinking prophet' will go out of fashion.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#162

Post by scott_s » Tue, May 13, 2008, 5:54 PM UTC

Prrometheus wrote: post #121

mrtron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in a farming community, death was common and not hidden from children. The more horrific thing for me as a kid was discovering: "Today’s domesticated turkeys are anatomically manipulated to be so heavy and large breasted, because breast meat is the most desirable and therefore commands the best price, that they are now incapable of breeding naturally." So, there are people who have to perform this artifici…

Responding to half your post, there are cultures (such as farms) where death is dealt with more frankly, and it doesn't seem to cause harm to children outside of making them more practical.

I think the key is that it's the parents who are uncomfortable with death, since they don't have to deal with it on a daily basis, either.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#163

Post by yters » Tue, May 13, 2008, 5:56 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #90

shawndrost wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you disagree with, and why? Dissent is fun to read about.

I sense that some of the disagreements that I have with Paul Graham are deeply fundamental and have to do with the fabric and meaning of our existence. First of all, I'm a religious person. This I have seen immediately qualifies me for ridicule from some on a forum such as this, as believing in God is seen as the logical equivalent to believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. If you think I am totally deluded be…

Another issue is that religion is better understood when someone has grown up within one. It's alot easier to understand the lack of religion. The same things with a number of affections that the educated consider false, such as patriotism, true love, etc.

So, really, if a person keeps their child away from things like this so they can make an informed decision when they are older actually can limit their ability to make an informed decision.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#164

Post by r7000 » Tue, May 13, 2008, 6:01 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #139

Prrometheus wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>f you think I am totally deluded because of my beliefs, I would ask that you at least show respect for the fact that I am devoted to them and value them sincerely. Belief qua belief does not deserve respect. That is a self-serving myth told by believing people.

How about civility? That's kind of like respect. Do I "deserve" any civility? If it's a myth and a self-serving lie to think that you should show respect for other people's beliefs, count me as one of the self-serving liars.

If I were having a conversation with a friend I would prefer Prrometheus' comments to yours. If I were told in response to something I said: "Belief qua belief does not deserve respect", first of all I would think "Alright! Half-baked Latin! That justifies the price we paid for these coffees!" but also I would be happy to be given the chance to advance the conversation. I would have been given a choice either to explain to my friend that I had not got my point across and to try again, or I could discuss why "belief qua belief" does deserve respect.

However, if the conversation began with my friend telling me "you will probably just dismiss this" and especially "many others believe this" I would feel insulted/dismissed.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#165

Post by scott_s » Tue, May 13, 2008, 6:05 PM UTC

jcl wrote: post #151

scott_s wrote: post #43

Protecting kids might be one of the reasons that people move to suburbia, but it's not the only reason. People like living in large houses and having land. That's exorbitantly expensive in the city for middle class families. I also grew up in the suburbs, and I experienced the boredom pg talked about. There was nothing for me and my friends to do . I remember thinking that living in an urban environment would be unth…

I think you may be overestimating the importance of geographic locale. Are suburban teenagers really less bored than urban teenagers? Or, for that matter, more engaged than rural teenagers? It's possible that some teenagers are just naturally bored, and that even in environment with plenty of activities, familiarity will eliminate enough that there is effectively nothing to do.

It's possible, as I'm merely talking from my own experience. But I clearly remember thinking that living in walking distance of commerce as any kind was exciting. There was a clear split in my mind between "places people lived" and "places people shopped." In the suburbs, there's not much for kids to do other than hang out at each other's houses.

Once we could drive, we spent a lot of time hanging out at Denny's and IHOP. I think, but obviously can not prove, that if we lived in walking distance of a downtown area, we would have been less bored.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#166

Post by wumi » Tue, May 13, 2008, 6:06 PM UTC

Prrometheus wrote: post #130

wumi wrote: post #96

"It's obvious now that he was on the list because he was black (and for that matter that Marie Curie was on it because she was a woman), but as a kid I was confused for years about him. I wonder if it wouldn't have been better just to tell us the truth: that there weren't any famous black scientists. Ranking George Washington Carver with Einstein misled us not only about science, but about the obstacles blacks faced…

During Black History Month, children will learn about nothing but black scientists. As far as I can recall, the most important one did something with blood types. >What powerful groups in America wanted a black scientist to be seen on the same level as Einstein? Identity politics runs very strong in classrooms, which tend to be politically controlled by left-wing teacher's unions. I've spent years of my life learning…

not any school I went to did we spend BHM learning about black scientists.

That's a very broad brush your painting, and I wonder if you have some actual data to back that statement up, other than you personal experiences learning about Native Americans.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#167

Post by r7000 » Tue, May 13, 2008, 6:07 PM UTC

pchristensen wrote: post #120

dgabriel wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The examples you presented to illustrate your argument ring false in my experience, and the premise seems flawed as a result. They may seem correct to you, depending on how your circle of friends behave. It might be more correct to say everybody lies outrageously to everybody else, and sometimes one person is a parent and one person is a child.

I agreed that the essay could use more examples. I understand that the examples might seem silly in 100 years (or even 10), but it would have benefited from things like "In 2008, many parents told their kids X"

Is that not implied? We can assume an author is writing about the present and recent past unless told otherwise told.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#168

Post by yters » Tue, May 13, 2008, 6:11 PM UTC

I think one of the most important purposes of morality is to keep people smart and interesting. I grew up in a pretty sheltered Christian environment, and the difference between how I thought and they way the jaded teenagers at public school thought was very distinct. The behaviors that are traditionally considered sinful end up making the sinner a boring and small minded person in the long run. This is essentially because sin destroys a person's imagination.

The object of sin is usually a very strong, visceral pleasure, and if there is anything that can control the focus of a person's mind it is strong, visceral pleasure. And, when I am thinking about pleasure, I'm not really thinking about anything. It is just a feeling, and feelings don't have any kind of logical content that can lead my mind to other thoughts. Finally, engaging in visceral pleasure makes everything else seem boring by comparison, while also requiring a greater amount of the pleasure's source to get a thrill. The combined result is me having a one track mind, constantly thinking about nothing.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#169

Post by r7000 » Tue, May 13, 2008, 6:13 PM UTC

dgabriel wrote: post #4

My least favorite pg essay. It's too easy to generalize about parenting, and so little of this essay applies to me. 1. Raising a kid in the city, and quite happily. 2. No prohibitions on swears in my house. Just at Grandma's, and only because it would offend her, not because swearing is inherently bad. 3. He goes to a school where they only teach you how to read, write, and do basic math. Everything else is a child-l…

Essays must use generalizations. There are always exceptions to any possible example. However, you are probably reinforcing many, many other deep-seated cultural norms that were not used as examples. Some that may even drop out of favour in the future.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#170

Post by mechanical_fish » Tue, May 13, 2008, 6:14 PM UTC

goodgoblin wrote: post #64

Regarding the horrible nature of some things in the world - pollution, the pain and suffering our lunch goes through, etc. - I think one of the reasons people don't always tell the truth is their own comfort with the way things are might be upended. I have a 5 year old who naturally is opposed to eating meat and who is shocked by the thought of killing something to eat it. I personally don't think I would eat somethi…

thoughts of desperate cows clambering to avoid the stun bolt

I'm certainly not saying that this never happens (How would I know? And from what I hear you don't want to give the meatpacking industry too much slack; they cut every corner they can. Read Fast Food Nation...) but Temple Grandin claims to have built an entire career out of making sure that this sort of thing doesn't happen. She says that panicking the cows is more than just cruel: It lowers the quality of the meat and it threatens to slow your slaughterhouse to a halt.

I read a book by Grandin, and she's an unusual writer; perhaps because she's autistic, she's almost supernaturally incapable of mincing words. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable reading her work to a kid. :)

Incidentally, as a non-vegetarian married to a vegetarian, I understand your point of view perfectly...