Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France • Hacker News Board

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#151

Post by xaqfox » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

mnx wrote: post #126

TomMarius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone moving at 100km/h through a city isn't any less likely to kill someone when hit just because they are poor. Actually we could argue that it's more likely due to the poor average condition and old age of their cars. A new Mercedes brakes much better than a 20 year old Skoda and usually has auto-braking systems and braking force enhancers. However "going through a city" is very general. There are several actu…

That speed limit might be more noise related. So the harm is much different, but the victims are people living nearby.

Just like moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise. Those same victims likely received a discount on property price as compensation.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#152

Post by Karunamon » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #148

seszett wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can see them as security measures that only cost money to those who break the rules, meaning they are essentially free to law-abiding citizens.

You missed the part that the rules are BS, and the lights rigged to produce fines -- and in some cases even causing accidents rather than prevent them? There have been lots of scandals over the years and I even gave some links...

We’ve been talking speed cameras here, not lights. Light cams and associated rigging is an entirely different problem with different implications.

Meanwhile, if you keep the little needle on your speedometer under what the last sign said, you’ll be fine. Pretty damn hard to rig that.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#153

Post by seszett » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 1:00 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #148

seszett wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can see them as security measures that only cost money to those who break the rules, meaning they are essentially free to law-abiding citizens.

You missed the part that the rules are BS, and the lights rigged to produce fines -- and in some cases even causing accidents rather than prevent them? There have been lots of scandals over the years and I even gave some links...

I'm not sure which lights you are talking about, and none of your links are about French speedcams.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#154

Post by gambiting » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 1:04 PM UTC

xaqfox wrote: post #151

mnx wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That speed limit might be more noise related. So the harm is much different, but the victims are people living nearby.

Just like moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise. Those same victims likely received a discount on property price as compensation.

Seeing as it's Prague, the chances are very good that the houses were built long before cars were a thing.

And I don't even understand your assumption - of course you should be complaining about noise levels if they are unacceptable, no matter if you just moved next to an airport or if you lived there for the past 50 years. Same as moving next to a pub or a night club - why does it matter that you just moved next to it, if the local laws governing noise levels at certain times existed for decades? Either the club/pub/airport brakes those laws or it doesn't - your personal length of habitation in the area has nothing to do with it.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#155

Post by sveme » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 1:11 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #78

megaremote wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can anyone say this seriously? This is the stupidest thing I keep hearing from certain people. The idea is to stop you speeding EVERYWHERE. Not just where speed cameras are. It is to penalise people who constantly break the law, and make the road dangerous for everyone.

How can anyone say this seriously? This is the stupidest thing I keep hearing from certain people. The idea is to make money for the police department and the municipality. https://www.leg33.com/maryland-speed-camera-fraud/ https://steemit.com/technology/@doitvoluntarily/are-traffic-... http://time.com/3505994/red-light-camera-problems-tickets/ https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/617207/Speed-cameras-safet... https://w…

In Germany you are not allowed to put up a speed cam just about anywhere. It needs to be an accident-prone site or one where it has been demonstrated before that it's prone to speeding.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#156

Post by Terretta » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #143

chrisper wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your view is so naive that I won't even try to argue against it. Your argument only works if cameras weren't set up as traps. Tricky speed cameras make people drive like robots. Some people even drive 20 below the speed limit "just because there could be a camera lurking." This problem isn't easily solved by "just sticking to the speed limit" because many cameras are set up such that they catch you when it isn't natu…

No, my argument even works if the cameras are set up as traps. The speed limit at any stretch of the road is well known. It's visibly posted at the sides if it deviates from the expected. You're are arguing in favor of "everybody exceeds the speed limit, so we shouldn't punish it." I'm arguing in favor of "everyone should drive at the speed limit." Have you tried lately to drive 30 in a posted 30kmh zone? 50kmh in a…

Your rhetorical questions about ‘why isn’t it natural’ have been researched. Turns out there is indeed a natural and safe speed for given road conditions, and a high percentile of drivers will stay within that envelope.

The traps are when townships set speed limits well below the envelope, a speed that is unnatural.

A classic example is rural interstate highway, when the limit will drop from 75 to 55 because of “population density” even when the density is far from the highway and not traffic-interactive, then sit their local law enforcement on the highway to selectively pull over out of town / out of state “speeders”. Let’s be clear - there is no safety element to this practice.

A similar thing happens on rural roads at “town” boundaries. Classic examples in, say, Vermont, with winding mountain roads and natural speed limits. Hit an “incorporated” town that got itself a cop car, and you suddenly have a speed limit 15 - 20 mph below the rest of the road, with the first sign just around a tight corner, and the camera or cop sitting right there. The only safety difference in the road is the legal incorporation status of the town, nothing “natural” about that.

Please don’t take my word for any of this, it’s been researched.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#157

Post by TomMarius » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 1:28 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #154

xaqfox wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise. Those same victims likely received a discount on property price as compensation.

Seeing as it's Prague, the chances are very good that the houses were built long before cars were a thing. And I don't even understand your assumption - of course you should be complaining about noise levels if they are unacceptable, no matter if you just moved next to an airport or if you lived there for the past 50 years. Same as moving next to a pub or a night club - why does it matter that you just moved next to…

Most of the roads I'm talking about are not near houses and/or underground. There are several roads where it indeed is noise related, but these ones are 60km/h only.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#158

Post by hackeraccount » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

D_Guidi wrote: post #6

TomMarius wrote: post #2

"Some protesters feel speed cameras are solely a revenue-generating measure which takes money from the poor." This is also the case in Central and Eastern Europe. EDIT: Please read what I cited properly. The citation includes the "Some protesters feel ..." part, which is what I meant - that many people in central and eastern Europe feel the same, not that I feel they're right (what I think is irrelevant).

the poor simply can respect the rules like the rich, right?

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#159

Post by Xylakant » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #156

Xylakant wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my argument even works if the cameras are set up as traps. The speed limit at any stretch of the road is well known. It's visibly posted at the sides if it deviates from the expected. You're are arguing in favor of "everybody exceeds the speed limit, so we shouldn't punish it." I'm arguing in favor of "everyone should drive at the speed limit." Have you tried lately to drive 30 in a posted 30kmh zone? 50kmh in a…

Your rhetorical questions about ‘why isn’t it natural’ have been researched. Turns out there is indeed a natural and safe speed for given road conditions, and a high percentile of drivers will stay within that envelope. The traps are when townships set speed limits well below the envelope, a speed that is unnatural. A classic example is rural interstate highway, when the limit will drop from 75 to 55 because of “popu…

> Please don’t take my word for any of this, it’s been researched.

Well, link the research, so I don't have to take your word for this.

> A classic example is rural interstate highway, when the limit will drop from 75 to 55 because of “population density” even when the density is far from the highway and not traffic-interactive, then sit their local law enforcement on the highway to selectively pull over out of town / out of state “speeders”. Let’s be clear - there is no safety element to this practice.

As always and in any case, bad actors are everywhere. But is that really such a common practice that you can just lump in all speed traps and just say "all of them are money traps"?

Re: Yellow vests knock out 60% of all speed cameras in France

#160

Post by CalRobert » Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #145

DanBC wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK cameras can only be placed in accident hot spots. They're still very unpopular.

Teen drives his hot hatch with 3 friends as passengers into lamp post by showing off his high speed handbrake turns. Accident figures peak. Council installs "safety" camera and lowers speed limit. Next year figures revert to mean. Council: "Aha! The lower limit and camera has cut accidents, we'll make it permanent". Net result: speed camera in middle of nowhere, on a dual carriageway, in isolated section of 40mph lim…

"Goodbye 85th percentile rule " - is this bad? It's a flawed non-rule.

In many places (including Ireland, where I live) the same roads where people drive are where you walk your dog or ride a bike - with no footpath. The 85th percentile guideline doesn't help them.

Remember that roads were for walking (by humans, horses, etc) and drivers turned up and stole them.