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Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

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Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#31

Post by badpun »

kevmo wrote: post #24
Glawen wrote: post #20

If by low level you mean embedded systems programming, you will definetly need to be proficient in C. The other knowledge depends on the product that you will make. For example I work in the automotive industry, where you need to be interested in cars and how the different parts work. Knowledge of electrical engineering and control theory is also valuable. There is a good book about it if you wat to learn how cars wo…

I don't do embedded systems, but as a self-respecting software engineer, I am intending to develop proficiency in C/C++ over this next year. Does anybody have any recommended books/courses/projects?

The prevailing opinion is that one does not simply develop proficiency in C++ in a year.

Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#32

Post by ceidsness »

yitchelle wrote: post #27

Assuming that you want to move into embedded. Focus on C and follow up with an understanding of the underlying assembler code. Haven't played with Rust for about 1 year, so I don't how how mature it is these days. Also have an idea of how to debug the code. Debugging on embedded is very different to debugging a web/js app.

Linux Device Drivers 3rd Edition is a bit dated but is still a wonderful introduction to systems programming in C. It's for Linux, but it presents information that is useful when working with any system.

Low-level systems programming is hard and can be a bit boring at times. I agree that debugging is very different from debugging on higher level systems. Most of the time an oscilloscope or an LED is the best debugging tool. Also, in well written low level code you tend to have more code making sure that everything is okay than you have actually doing stuff, which can be tedious. It takes a certain kind of personality to enjoy it.

Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#34

Post by keldaris »

fizwhiz wrote: post #8
m00dy wrote: post #3

I would like to start by Ulrich Drepper' famous paper What Every Programmer Should Know About Memory [0] [0]: https://people.freebsd.org/~lstewart/articles/cpumemory.pdf

Genuinely curious how useful this has been to you, personally.

I only found Drepper's paper 4-5 years ago, but it would have been a godsend back when I learned how modern computers work. It took a lot of inefficient effort to scrounge together the basics, having a single source that covers most of the essentials is immensely valuable as a starting point. Agner Fog's manuals are another piece of essential reading and reference that I recommend everyone go through at least once.

And yes, the title isn't hyperbole. You can skim the parts describing specific tooling, but the fact that the description of the memory hierarchy and how it works hasn't been internalized by every programmer is a travesty.

Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#35

Post by Legogris »

badpun wrote: post #31
kevmo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't do embedded systems, but as a self-respecting software engineer, I am intending to develop proficiency in C/C++ over this next year. Does anybody have any recommended books/courses/projects?

The prevailing opinion is that one does not simply develop proficiency in C++ in a year.

C is definitely doable though. Loads of good recommendations of you search for them. Everyone will recommend K&R. |This book also goes through a lot of the lower-level things, debugging, etc: https://nostarch.com/hacking2.htm.

Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#37

Post by imdsm »

Legogris wrote: post #35
badpun wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prevailing opinion is that one does not simply develop proficiency in C++ in a year.

C is definitely doable though. Loads of good recommendations of you search for them. Everyone will recommend K&R. |This book also goes through a lot of the lower-level things, debugging, etc: https://nostarch.com/hacking2.htm .

I have this and K&R. Recommend both /very/ highly.

Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#38

Post by antirez »

There are good general rules in a few comments here, but I think it's ok to say that in 2018 the specialization arrived to a point where system/low-level is too large to reply in a good way? One thing is to write games engines, another is to write networking code, yet another embedded systems, device drivers and so forth. There are certain common aspects, but the details of what you need to know change significantly.

Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#39

Post by tonysdg »

kevmo wrote: post #24
Glawen wrote: post #20

If by low level you mean embedded systems programming, you will definetly need to be proficient in C. The other knowledge depends on the product that you will make. For example I work in the automotive industry, where you need to be interested in cars and how the different parts work. Knowledge of electrical engineering and control theory is also valuable. There is a good book about it if you wat to learn how cars wo…

I don't do embedded systems, but as a self-respecting software engineer, I am intending to develop proficiency in C/C++ over this next year. Does anybody have any recommended books/courses/projects?

A quick word of warning: be sure to treat C and C++ as two completely separate languages that just happen to have similar syntax. Yes, you can use C++ as "C with classes" (I and many others sure have at times), but you're doing yourself a disservice most of the time if you do.

Re: Ask HN: What should a systems/low-level software engineer know?

#40

Post by pjc50 »

kevmo wrote: post #24
Glawen wrote: post #20

If by low level you mean embedded systems programming, you will definetly need to be proficient in C. The other knowledge depends on the product that you will make. For example I work in the automotive industry, where you need to be interested in cars and how the different parts work. Knowledge of electrical engineering and control theory is also valuable. There is a good book about it if you wat to learn how cars wo…

I don't do embedded systems, but as a self-respecting software engineer, I am intending to develop proficiency in C/C++ over this next year. Does anybody have any recommended books/courses/projects?

Do C first. Achieve a small functioning project of your own, like the calculator in the back of Kernighan and Pike. This will give you a good understanding of pointer orientated programming and the C tooling and debug strategies.

Then pick whether you want to start from the "front" or "back" of C++; i.e. learning the language in chronological order or in reverse. C++17 idiomatic style is very different from the 99 style that most existing C++ is written in.

I would suggest picking a codebase to work on and learning its style and subset of C++ first.

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