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How much Americans make in wages

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Re: How much Americans make in wages

#121
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, do you subsidize your siblings? I'm going to be in the same situation and I'm not sure what I'm going to end up doing but I think I'm going to end up doing it.

Yeah, moderately. This year I gave about $7k to each sibling which is life-changing for them and not really a hardship for me other than slightly delaying my home-ownership goal. For one sibling, I'm the safety net when crises happen that they can't afford. E.g. can't come up with their car insurance deductible, water heater broke, etc. They don't ask but I always offer when it's clear that a small outlay would spare…

I often think about this.

My parents combined make roughly 30k/yr with little to no retirement savings. They are immigrants (including myself) and neither of them attended high school. They have four children including myself: three girls, one guy (me). My dad, the person who brings in most of the household income, is close to retiring, at least I think he is: he's in his early-mid 60s and has his own gardening business with his own workers. I assume his body is taking a toll or even more so, can't handle the 6am to 7pm, 7 days/wk work days. My mom, on the other hand, is in her late 40s and works as a part-time elementary school supervisor - looking after kids, etc. She recently, as we were joking around this past holiday break, mentioned that I should already get my degree and that fancy new-grad gig so she wouldn't have to work anymore. I laughed it off, secretly wishing I could so immediately.

We, as in our 6 person family, live in a two-bedroom apartment in the Orange County area. My parents have been edging to move to some place cheaper like Perris, to finally be able to achieve that ol' American dream of owning or renting a home. I'm not too fond on the inland empire, and prefer the southern coastal cities of Orange County, etc. I've been wanting to say, "Wait a few years. I'll have a full-time salary job, and I can definitely help you rent a lovely house in a nice, quiet area I think you would all love. I'll send 2.5k/mth and maybe my sisters can help out too." But that's a big commitment to make.

It's difficult. Thinking about this adds a load of pressure on my shoulders, and it's even convoluted with a deep rooted sadness because I think about life and death and their respective lives and feel this what my parents need/want and I can't help them immediately. This might be part of the reason why I've been engulfed in eastern religions and eastern mysticism these past few years, maybe as a coping mechanism. I mean, these are just "cultural" problems. After all, a bed and roof over our head is all that will do fine and dandy. But I don't want to tell my parents that, they probably know it, and despite it, they just want their own perception of a little happiness. Alas, all is well. I hope I play my cards out right these next few years. If not, that's okay too.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#122
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, do you subsidize your siblings? I'm going to be in the same situation and I'm not sure what I'm going to end up doing but I think I'm going to end up doing it.

Keep your family and money separate. It usually always ends poorly otherwise.

Sounds like you haven't had to deal with family members in abject poverty before?

My parents can't work, for example. They're both disabled and rely on food stamps plus medicare just to survive. This puts a rather large financial burden on me at times to say the least, because I would rather not see my parents starve to death.

If only we had a government that took better care of people in poverty. Imagine that.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#123

Perhaps nitpicky, but it bothers me that their data representation is a psuedo-pie chart that isn’t even centered.

Not nitpicky at all. It's a pointless, obfuscating blob of unhelpful colors violating basic principles of data visualization: - Sequential income brackets are not adjacent. The wage of each blob can only be understood by reading every number - Irregular shapes make it impossible to gauge size by eye - White text on green and pink backgrounds does not score well on WCAG. At least they had the decency to make the text…

I even think it's intentionally obfuscated. The obfuscation misleadingly suggests the arbitrarily chosen thresholds 30k and 50k are somehow meaningful. This encourages group-association-based / class-divide-based outrage-sharing, reinforcing the infighting between lower middle class and upper middle class.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#124
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the current situation in America, there's really no other thing to do. Yes they might become codependent, but if you look at the situation realistically there's not a lot they can do to change the situation. Being there as a safety net can take a lot of mental pressure off of them.

On the other hand, having family take care each other is a more robust and decentralized system than us all being atomized and being cared for by the state.

> more robust and decentralized system than us all being atomized and being cared for by the state.

Decentralized, sure. Robust? No way. Unless they are wealthy and economically independent, your family are a small number of failures away from not being able to support you. A locally correlated failure ( i.e a plant or industry that employs many of them folds) can knock out the support system. Not to mention that unlike government programs, your family are under no legal obligation to help you.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#125
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government debt denominated in one's own currency is not really a serious issue because governments can print their own currency to pay it off. Yes this can result in inflation, but the inflationary effects are vastly overstated. Most of the inflation happens at the point of spending. I recommend reading up on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/01/diagrams-dollars-...

MMT says that printing money has no effect if you give it to certain people. I’ve yet to hear of a real-world example where a major economy doubles or triples their monetary supply with no negative effect, which is what MMT will have you believe (“don’t give it to the banks - give it to poor people in Idaho!”). If it sounds too good to be true then it is.

The US M1 Money Supply has tripled since 2000 according to the St. Louis Fed: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL

There have not been issues with high inflation.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#126

If $30,000 per year is "substandard" then the rest of the developed world must be positively impoverished: https://mises.org/wire/when-it-comes-household-income-sweden... . There's a very legitimate criticism to be made about the plight of the poor in the U.S. But the U.S. middle class has it better than almost everyone else in the world. They make a lot more money than in Europe, and pay far less taxes. (Indeed, the…

This is remarkably ignorant of the actual circumstances that lower-class Americans have to deal with, especially when you share almost improbable statistics that are completely out of touch with reality. 30,000 is far from a decent income considering people get gouged on health insurance, which effectively functions as another tax on their post-tax income. When you start adding in the costs of food, internet, phone,…

I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in their career, etc. That's the basic fallacy of the article. We imagine someone with kids making $30,000 and how hard that would be. And then we see that the median income is $30,000, and are shocked to think that somehow half of all people must be in those "dire" financial circumstances. But someone making $30,000 with kids to support is in fact far below the median. The median family income in the U.S. is $73,000.

These statistics are not "improbable"--they are fact: https://dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/average_median_....

Your point about health insurance also contradicts reality. Excluding people covered by Medicare and military health care, 70% of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance. That covers, on average, 86% of premiums for the employee and 75% for dependents. Many Americans don't have health insurance, of course. But the median American does. The person making $30,000 and getting "gouged on health insurance" out of that amount is far below the median.

> This is not even counting the fact that Americans work more for less

That's simply false. The median income in the U.S. is about 10% higher than Sweden (and much higher than the U.K. or France or Germany). Do Swedes get 36 extra days off each year to compensate? (No they don't.) Disposable income at the median is even higher in the U.S. because Sweden has extremely high tax rates on the middle class. The poor in Sweden, on the other hand, are much better off thanks to those taxes on the Swedish middle class.

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At $30,000, a family likely qualifies for Medicaid in their state.

If we use his example of Atlanta, Georgia an income of $30,000 would be over the requirements for Medicaid for quite a lot of families [1] The poorest states it would seem to me are also the ones most stringent with offering Medicaid. [1] https://medicaid.georgia.gov/sites/medicaid.georgia.gov/file...

I didn't use an example of a family, because a family making $30,000 is not the median. The median family income in Georgia is $68,000: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/Georgia. This is a city where you can buy a 3BR house bigger than the one I grew up in for a $920/month mortgage: https://www.redfin.com/GA/Kennesaw/3072-Black-Gum-Dr-NW-3015....

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is remarkably ignorant of the actual circumstances that lower-class Americans have to deal with, especially when you share almost improbable statistics that are completely out of touch with reality. 30,000 is far from a decent income considering people get gouged on health insurance, which effectively functions as another tax on their post-tax income. When you start adding in the costs of food, internet, phone,…

I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in the…

>I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in their career, etc. That's the basic fallacy of the article. We imagine someone with kids making $30,000 and how hard that would be. And then we see that the median income is $30,000, and are shocked to think that somehow half of all people must be in those "dire" financial circumstances. But someone making $30,000 with kids to support is in fact far below the median. The median family income in the U.S. is $73,000.

I would certainly hope you would agree that each American in those age groups is going to have experienced different job prospects and different stages of the economy, which is why it can be misleading. For example I would easily make the argument that the average American below the age of 35 would also have considerably more debt than Americans age 35+. This is just one measure of how median income can be entirely misleading.

And my arguments against your statistics was more about the fact that you linked to a highly partisan outlet seemingly known for heavily cherry-picking statistics to prove a hard-right bias.

>Your point about health insurance also contradicts reality. Excluding people covered by Medicare and military health care, 70% of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance. That covers, on average, 86% of premiums for the employee and 75% for dependents. Many Americans don't have health insurance, of course. But the median American does. The person making $30,000 and getting "gouged on health insurance" out of that amount is far below the median.

Premiums are only one half of an equation; with HDHPs even if your employee covers a large amount of the premiums a medical emergency still leaves you stuck with over 6k in debt, something a lot of poor families cannot afford considering how little they have in savings [1]

> Do Swedes get 36 extra days off each year to compensate? (No they don't.)

Yeah, about that. [2] Sweden gets 34 total days of paid leave per year, guaranteed. America has no such provisions and it is entirely up to the discretion of the company. For developers, we can probably expect to get around ~10-15 days off, plus occasional holidays.

[1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-have-less-t...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#129
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helping your siblings is communism?

This is what Fox news and the modern GOP have done to my country. Note: I'm an ardent capitalist, not particularly partisan by nature, and probably would be a Republican at this point if my life had the Republican party remained what they were 50 years ago. Nonetheless, I'm often stunned at what we've become thanks to modern GOP-inspired propaganda. What would my dear (and communism-hating, btw) grandparents think of…

  had the Republican party remained what they were 50 years ago
Meaning, powerless and irrelevant at the Federal level and in 60% of the statehouses?

Re: How much Americans make in wages

#130
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, do you subsidize your siblings? I'm going to be in the same situation and I'm not sure what I'm going to end up doing but I think I'm going to end up doing it.

Yeah, moderately. This year I gave about $7k to each sibling which is life-changing for them and not really a hardship for me other than slightly delaying my home-ownership goal. For one sibling, I'm the safety net when crises happen that they can't afford. E.g. can't come up with their car insurance deductible, water heater broke, etc. They don't ask but I always offer when it's clear that a small outlay would spare…

In my language (Marathi), we have a phrase for this which can be translated as "from the bowl into the plate". The intention is to expand the meaning of "me" to include people that matter. Then you no longer think of the money that you give out as a loan or a gift; you're merely spending it on your extended self.

I was afforded the "luxury" of doing a PhD instead of getting a job out of college because my older brother was working and assumed the financial responsibility of the house. Now I work too, and if the occasion arises, I am happy to part with reasonable sums of money without even thinking of whether it is meant to be repaid or not.

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