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Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

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Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#151

Post by suby »

ignaloidas wrote: post #121
suby wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not ready imo. Someone correct me if I am wrong about any of this. Their custom scripting language is extremely slow to the point where I wouldn't consider using it. You can use C#, but if you download the c# version you get a warning on startup which states that this version isnt production ready. You can use C++, but I found the workflow here awkward, plus they just introduced it with 3.0. They are about to l…

Oh, come on, how many compute-intensive things you need to do in a game scripting language? GDscript is fast enough for scripting, C++ is there for the compute-intensive tasks you might do (though most of them are already implemented by the engine). C# on the other hand, is to attract Unity users that are too lazy to put in 30 minutes to go through GDscript's concepts. It's OK that it's there, but personally I found…

Performance is a feature. If you want your game to have as large a playerbase as possible, it needs to perform well even on bad hardware.

I strongly suspect that most people will write their entire game in an engines default language. Especially in this case where the much advertised best alternative (C#) gives you a warning on startup about not being production ready.

Yes, C# is probably integrated due to its success in Unity, but it's a sane choice. I would argue more so than GDScript. C# has better performance, tooling, support, not to mention an existing userbase of people who already know (and I'm sure many of whom like) the language.

Ignoring C#, they cannot be breaking their API for writing native code. I'm not sure if it was a one time thing, or if it will continue going into future releases, but they absolutely need to have stability if they want people to use their engine long term.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#152

Post by jamie_ca »

Animats wrote: post #111

So right now we know the "what", but not the "why". What Improbable really has, or claims to have, is a way to scale massively multiplayer games where everyone is in the same world. They have a back end which is basically a synching system for small data elements between computers in a data center. Think of it as being like the way a shared memory multiprocessor synchs its memory system. Some data items belong to a s…

The "why" is apparently "so we can capture that revenue stream". They just launched an alpha of a competing service (autoscaling dedicated servers, on Google's cloud) and apparently want to nix the competition.

https://unity.com/solutions/real-time-multiplayer/game-serve...

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#153

Post by hnbroseph »

vkou wrote: post #47
EamonnMR wrote: post #11

This is why I tend to shy away from proprietary tools like Unity-an event like this is sort of like an asteroid strike, it's improbable but there's no defense against it and if it happens you are wiped out.

Do that, and your game will never ship - because developing your own engine is a beast of a timesink. The open source offerings are toys compared to Unity/Unreal.

maybe, but we can see that projects built on spatialos won't be shipping either. (hopefully this is a temporary unintended consequence of the license update.)

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#154

Post by kllrnohj »

umvi wrote: post #31
hadrien01 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened with Source?

Valve pretty much abandoned developing everything but Steam. You'll still see a few token projects come out of Valve, but it seems like they've basically turned into Steam, Inc.

That's not true at all, though? Source has continued to get changes & upgrades over the years. It has a vulkan backend, the UI system is no longer scaleform but a web-based system called Panorama, a new physics engine called Rubikon that replaced the old Havok engine, etc...

They aren't putting out many new games, although they did just release Artifact a couple months ago. But DOTA 2 & CSGO continue to get updates, changes, and improvements. CSGO for example has an entirely new, machine-learning based anti-cheat system called VacNet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhK8lUfIlc

They have tons of talks on GDC of all sorts of really cool stuff they are doing that's related to Source 2 and has nothing to do with Steam.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#155

Post by modeless »

tcfunk wrote: post #30
wishinghand wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Spatial was not doing that, they are an integration with Unity. Developers still needed to install Unity with a license, get the SpatialOS framework running as their net code, and then write a game.

I'm not so sure. Maybe I am misunderstanding but the terms prohibit the "use [of] a managed service running on cloud infrastructure...to install or execute the Unity Runtime on the cloud or a remote server". Which leads me to believe they are installing or running the Unity Runtime on their servers? If not I'd love a better explanation :)

Perhaps you are unaware that the Unity runtime is royalty free, or at least it has been until now. You can distribute it to an unlimited number of people without paying Unity. What Unity charges for is their developer tools, not the runtime. Since developers using Unity with SpatialOS still need Unity's developer tools, it does not threaten Unity's business model in the slightest. That's why this is surprising.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#156

Post by erik »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #116
thecatspaw wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unitys C# code is also visible source

I missed that announcement, good for them, too little too late: https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/03/26/releasing-the-unity-c-s...

Note that this is just the C# layer. The underlying C++ engine code is still only available under "call us" license terms.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#157

Post by dathinab »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #13
hedora wrote: post #10

I’m surprised the developers can’t simply reject the changes to the Unity TOS and keep using an old version of the engine (especially for production games!) Anyone know why that’s not an option?

Because Unity's TOS, like many software agreements, stretch retroactively and proactively across versions. If you use Unity, you agree to Unity Technologies terms, and their discretion to change them, without notice. It's literally in the terms. It's not so much software as it is software as a service.

Just because it's in the terms of service (or any contract) doesn't mean it's valid and legally binding. I'm not a lawyer but I would be surprised if a term which allows arbitrary retroactive changes of contacts is legal (at last in Europe). Through that's just wrt the retroactive part.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#158

Post by Impossible »

Figs wrote: post #87
ezekg wrote: post #37

> You may not directly or indirectly distribute the Unity Software, including the runtime portion of the Unity Software (the “Unity Runtime”), or your Project Content (if it incorporates the Unity Runtime) by means of streaming or broadcasting so that any portion of the Unity Software is primarily executed on or simulated by the cloud or a remote server and transmitted over the Internet or other network to end user d…

If you do have to redo everything, why the hell would you switch to another proprietary technology?! Why not use OpenSceneGraph, OGRE, Irrlicht, Cube2, or one of the hundreds of other free game engines / frameworks out there instead?

Based on your comment it seems like you haven't looked into or used a game engine since the late 90s (Cube 2 and Irrlicht?). The only real open source competition for Unreal and Unity is probably Godot, and it's not really competitive. Many of the engines you mentioned (OSG, Ogre) are not full game engine, but renderers and scene graph implementations. For that something like bgfx or even three.js if you're targeting the browser is a better open source alternative. Most of the engines you mentioned haven't been updated in years and don't have support for modern tech or platforms (VR, AR, DX12, Metal, Vulkan, PS4, XB1, Switch, etc) so you'd be better off writing your own engine if you wanted to actually ship a game. Your advice is like telling someone to license idtech in 2019...

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#159

Post by cleansy »

The CEO of Unity is the former CEO of Electronic Arts. I do believe that he might be executing the same business practices on Unity's developers as EA did on their customers.

The first time I saw their CEO choice I thought that this can't be good for the dev community around Unity.

Here is a question, even though Unity is incorporated in the US, did anyone find the filings with the SEC? Or is it not required for and Inc to publish them?

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#160

Post by sounds »

silentOpen wrote: post #117
Animats wrote: post #111

So right now we know the "what", but not the "why". What Improbable really has, or claims to have, is a way to scale massively multiplayer games where everyone is in the same world. They have a back end which is basically a synching system for small data elements between computers in a data center. Think of it as being like the way a shared memory multiprocessor synchs its memory system. Some data items belong to a s…

Improbable doesn’t have planet scale solutions. Their most touted title, Worlds Adrift, is explicitly discretized into regions. They use ‘creative’ solutions like ‘impassable storms’ to prevent crowding.

It's likely they have both.

What they're shipping right now is the latter.

What they're selling to investors is the former. Planet scale.

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