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'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

latimes.com

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Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#71

Post by jalgos_eminator »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #51
acostoss wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competition isn't bad, but harming yourself in service of competition is. You can compete without endangering yourself and harming others. You can be the best without having to play the "I'm manlier than you" game.

>> You can compete without endangering yourself and harming others. You can be the best without having to play the "I'm manlier than you" game. Play without keeping a score so the loser is not "hurt" emotionally?

It sounds like you were reading a subtext that isn't there.

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#72

Post by smhost »

leereeves wrote: post #68
smhost wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the formula for small "c" conservative language-policing among post-critical folk seems to be: 1) identify a criticism of some traditional power structure (masculinity) 2) hijack the critical language and turn it on itself into a contradiction (anti-sexism is itself sexist) it's the same formula for everything from "atheism is itself a religion" to "anti-racism is racism against white people". to me it just seems lik…

When you start arguing that it's ok to discriminate against or insult people because of what different people in the past have done, you have indeed become what you hate. We can't change history. We can't fix past injustices with new injustices in the present; that's just creating new injustices and new divisions. The best we can do is treat each other well from this point forward.

the APA isn't "arguing that it's ok to discriminate against or insult people because of what different people in the past have done"

it's trying to rectify e.g. the fact that psychological norms were previously based on the psychology of well-functioning white men. until very recently, nobody thought of this as being biased. it's only with the introduction of feminist thought and feminist language into this sphere that these biases were made apparent.

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#73

Post by Balgair »

Where is the Times getting these quotes in their article? I can't find nearly any of them in the actual APA Guidelines document :

“traditional masculinity — marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression — is, on the whole, harmful.” - This sentence is is not in the guidelines.

"conform to traditional stereotypes about men’s emotionality" is not in the document, however :"in part because internalizing disorders do not conform to traditional gender role stereotypes about men’s emotionality." is in the document. Though not a large misquote, it is still a misquote.

“Traditional masculinity ideology has been shown to limit males’ psychological development, constrain their behavior, result in gender role strain and gender role conflict and negatively influence mental health and physical health,” is just straight up not in the document.

"despite social forces that can harm mental health" is also not in the document.

I've no idea where the author, Jessica Schladebeck, is getting her quotes, but the linked document that is in the article doe not have them. What am I missing here? I've not parsed it in detail yet, so my apologies, but it seems that a few of these quotes are just made up out of whole cloth.

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#74

Post by leereeves »

smhost wrote: post #72
leereeves wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you start arguing that it's ok to discriminate against or insult people because of what different people in the past have done, you have indeed become what you hate. We can't change history. We can't fix past injustices with new injustices in the present; that's just creating new injustices and new divisions. The best we can do is treat each other well from this point forward.

the APA isn't "arguing that it's ok to discriminate against or insult people because of what different people in the past have done" it's trying to rectify e.g. the fact that psychological norms were previously based on the psychology of well-functioning white men. until very recently, nobody thought of this as being biased. it's only with the introduction of feminist thought and feminist language into this sphere th…

> norms were previously based on the psychology of well-functioning white men.

And now they've gone to the other extreme, declaring those same norms "harmful".

I'm fine with confronting biases and accepting a wide range of behavior, but I wonder why the APA is embracing intolerance.

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#75

Post by smhost »

js8 wrote: post #69
smhost wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the point is that our history is gendered. i mean, the history of western thought is almost entirely white and male. if i want to take politics seriously, i immediately come into contact with the patriarchy because we all live in the shadow of great white men. i don't see why language shouldn't reflect history, especially political language.

"i don't see why language shouldn't reflect history, especially political language" I do see why it shouldn't (unless you are historian, perhaps). If we are to move, as a society, beyond the discrimination of the past, we need to drop the divisive language, too. It is why I think even the term "feminism" should be dropped and replaced with "gender equality movement" (perhaps in somewhat shorter, witty form). I think,…

if you're truly worried that language has the power to reproduce past injustices, you should be trying to part with the language of the oppressor, not the language of the oppressed

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#76

Post by Balgair »

turingspiritfly wrote: post #11

> “traditional masculinity — marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression — is, on the whole, harmful. This really sounds like an attack on masculinity. One must never forget, the age of information with all it's flaws and good was brought upon the back of a structure who's main building block atleast in terms of values were masculine values which I think is independent of gender/sex

That quote in the LA Time article in not in the APA Guidelines document. I've no idea where the author got that quote from. But then again, I've not parsed the APA document super carefully.

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#77

Post by lucozade »

karpodiem wrote: post #10

So would (self) pursuit of being physically attractive (high muscle mass / low body fat) and intelligence (eventually leading to earning power to support yourself and a family) equate to "eschewal of the appearance of weakness"? I'd like to hear the APA's answer to this.

Probably. And both can definitely be contributors to psychological strain. So, in my view, it's not unreasonable for the APA to say that.

In fairness, I don't see this as the APA saying that these things are inherently harmful. They're saying that they can be causal to mental health issues so psychologists should be aware of that.

I guess I may have interpreted that incorrectly. Clearly the article interpreted it differently.

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#78

Post by smhost »

leereeves wrote: post #74
smhost wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the APA isn't "arguing that it's ok to discriminate against or insult people because of what different people in the past have done" it's trying to rectify e.g. the fact that psychological norms were previously based on the psychology of well-functioning white men. until very recently, nobody thought of this as being biased. it's only with the introduction of feminist thought and feminist language into this sphere th…

> norms were previously based on the psychology of well-functioning white men. And now they've gone to the other extreme, declaring those same norms "harmful". I'm fine with confronting biases and accepting a wide range of behavior, but I wonder why the APA is embracing intolerance.

it's not "the other extreme." it's just a more objective view. it's just true that traditional masculine norms leads to circumstances where:

> boys are disproportionately represented among schoolchildren with learning difficulties (e.g., lower standardized test scores) and behavior problems (e.g., bullying, school suspensions, aggression). Likewise, men are overrepresented in prisons, are more likely than women to commit violent crimes, and are at greatest risk of being a victim of violent crime

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#79

Post by leereeves »

smhost wrote: post #78
leereeves wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> norms were previously based on the psychology of well-functioning white men. And now they've gone to the other extreme, declaring those same norms "harmful". I'm fine with confronting biases and accepting a wide range of behavior, but I wonder why the APA is embracing intolerance.

it's not "the other extreme." it's just a more objective view. it's just true that traditional masculine norms leads to circumstances where: > boys are disproportionately represented among schoolchildren with learning difficulties (e.g., lower standardized test scores) and behavior problems (e.g., bullying, school suspensions, aggression). Likewise, men are overrepresented in prisons, are more likely than women to co…

Men are punished more often and more severely than women who commit the same crimes. Girls who bully boys are less likely to be punished (and less likely to appear in the statistics) . Likewise for domestic violence, sexual assault, statutory rape, etc.

You can't ignore the contribution of societal bias against men and masculinity to the outcomes you describe.

Small biases early in life give boys a bad reputation, restrict their options, and create anger, leading to more severe criminal activity later, while women and girls are more often forgiven and able to continue their lives.

Re: 'Traditional masculinity' labeled 'harmful' by the American Psychological Assc

#80

Post by archarios »

nickles wrote: post #47

Traditional masculinity: "Conforming to the norms of the “masculinity ideology” can result in suppressing emotions and masking distress in young boys as well more risk-taking and aggressive behavior and a lack of willingness to seek out help." "traditional masculinity — marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression — is, on the whole, harmful." "Despite its warnings, the APA also encouraged men to emb…

People have varying level of testosterone in their bodies. Different bodies react to the same hormones differently. There are a lot of variables that contribute to who we are and how we experience life. Traditional gender standards push all sorts of people into certain boxes that a lot of people don't fit into comfortably and that causes a lot of people hardship. This is just recognizing a certain pattern that is generally harmful towards people subjected to it. It's fine to be competitive. It isn't okay to pressure people into being competitive because they "should" be to fit into their assigned role.
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