So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux • Hacker News Board

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#111

Post by rusk » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #78

mrspeaker wrote: post #67

This is most definitely selection bias, but it seems like there's something in the air at the moment with people jumping off the "mainstream tech" ship. Lots of talk of nostalgia for 90s internet culture, switching to Linux (I also switched to Linux (and Emacs!) after a decade+ on Mac), more secure/transparent tech with phones etc. More willingness to put up with "rough spots" and "less shiny" for greater access to t…

> Is it just nostalgia? Maybe. I think the Internet was pretty much an objectively better place in the 90s, but far more useful for "real world" things today. For me it's pretty personal and to be completely honest immensely sad. Since I was 14 I've worked full time on this "Internet" stuff and like to think I've contributed my tiny slice of pushing the future forward (and at times, unfortunately the opposite!). I tr…

Looking back, I'm wondering how I could have ever expected anything else ... all this amazing and eye-wateringly expensive network infrastructure provided for free! On a more positive note however, I do believe the pendulum swings back. Sometimes you've just got to stand back and watch the mistakes be made. I think a lot of this fascination with retro tech is in part an attempt to find a safe-space to operate while waiting for it all to blow over .. kind of like the Magratheans [https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Magrathea].

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#112

Post by jasondclinton » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

Tehchops wrote: post #42

End-user Linux has definitely improved in the last few years. It offers a lot of attractive features for what I imagine to be the typical HN demographic. That being said, it's still got rough spots that OSX doesn't. It works great when it works, but when it doesn't.... Font rendering, display/compositor fragmentation etc... Inb4 the anecdotal "well it works for me I just had to download the xf86 font library and comp…

That's true: some things are easier on Mac. In particular, I'd say that using software that hasn't been packaged for your distribution is much easier on Mac.

However, your example of fonts is definitely not one of those areas, anymore. Font rendering on Linux is as advanced and capable as any other OS including in the areas of kerning and hinting. It should just work without any user intervention and look great.

I agree with you that compositing/window manager fragmentation is a problem. And this article is a perfect example of that. The author may think that they're happy using i3 with Firefox and st at the moment, but the desktop computing environment has gotten so complex and the expectations of users who interact with desktop applications so rich, that a small hobby project DE/WM cannot fully satisfy all of those use cases over the long term. The only two desktop environment projects that have enough resources to meet the needs of users behind them are KDE and GNOME. And we shouldn't be telling new Linux users to try anything but those two.

FWIW, I've worked at Google for 7 years where we use Linux on our workstations. Many engineers fiddle with various "hacker" window managers like i3, Sway, Awesome, or fvwm. They almost universally give up and switch to GNOME(/Cinnamon) or KDE: it's just too fiddly/not complete and they'd rather use their brain power for solving real problems. The authors example of messing around with dmenu because "unix philosophy" is an example of this kind of waste of time that people eventually get tired of because they have better things to spend their time on.

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#113

Post by blhack » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

mrspeaker wrote: post #67

This is most definitely selection bias, but it seems like there's something in the air at the moment with people jumping off the "mainstream tech" ship. Lots of talk of nostalgia for 90s internet culture, switching to Linux (I also switched to Linux (and Emacs!) after a decade+ on Mac), more secure/transparent tech with phones etc. More willingness to put up with "rough spots" and "less shiny" for greater access to t…

I think it's that the mainstream stuff has just pushed too hard against usability for nerds.

I bought a laser cutter recently that requires internet access so they can use "the power of google cloud" to process vector files. Something computers have had NO problems with since he 90s.

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#114

Post by simplicio » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

Interesting that he's using suckless.org programs. I was reading through their codebase just to practice reading C, and was curious how much use they had "in the wild"

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#115

Post by ausjke » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

Why the switch :)

Linux desktop has been my sole desktop for the last 15 years, it gets better and got the job done. I must admit that Ubuntu made a big difference.

On the other hand unless you're a PC game lover, the PC itself is more of a chromebook, i.e. nice hardware running a modern browser plus a few decent editors. The OS underneath is less irrelevant now.

Linux has space to improve though, for me it is the power management especially for laptops.

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#116

Post by vetinari » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #108

larrik wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also say that Apple has plenty of rough spots that Linux doesn't as well. Font rendering the Apple way is a style choice at best. What does "display/compositor fragmentation" mean to end-user?

> What does "display/compositor fragmentation" mean to end-user? My 1Password FireFox extension (ubuntu 18.04 LTS) doesn't work on X unless I log in through the website but it works just fine on Wayland.

What is your X session? Gnome/KDE or plain window manager? It might be, that your wm is not launching some service that wayland session is and 1password needs.

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#117

Post by the_duke » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

boudin wrote: post #86

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #23

I find the fetish for terminal-based music players a bit odd. I associate terminals with doing work , so the idea of having one whose sole purpose is playing music (presumably in the background while you do other stuff) to feel like a waste of screen real-estate and something I'm likely to accidentally pull up while trying to cycle between my other terminal windows where I'm doing stuff. I much prefer something that…

With a tiling display manager like i3, dwm or awesome, system tray isn't that useful. You tends to have one app (or a group of app that you always use together) per virtual desktop that you access in one keyboard shortcut. You never circle through apps as it's not necessary. Most of the apps are in fullscreen or tiled depending on your need. No window is hiding another one. When you're use to it, having to move your…

Excellent analysis.

After using i3 for about 3-4 years, I have to admit that I'm always a bit lost on floating WMs now and feel like an idiot for a few minutes until I'm somewhat comfortable again.

To me tiling WMs are just vastly superior. Anecdotally, most people I know that have seriously tried to use a tiling WM usually end up sticking with them.

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#118

Post by devereaux » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

shmerl wrote: post #84

devereaux wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can do that with xdotool if you want to paste the xbuffer. I suggest handling the shortcuts at the window manager level. this force ctrl-c to always do copy - even in the terminal, but nothing stty can't fix quickly - I use ctrl-x instead as it is close by. end result, my ctrl c and ctrl v work as you would expect -- always!

There is wl-copy / wl-paste if you are using Wayland compositor.

I'm using xorg but very interested in Wayland. My main "fear" with wayland is that my scripts to properly handle things like a uniform copy/paste will stop working

Would you have some links? I am especially interested in ways to handle shortcuts like with autohotkey on Windows: a context dependent remap (ex: pressing a given physical key may send ctrl-tab in an application, but ctrl-pagedown in another if said other application doesn't support remapping shortcuts)

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#119

Post by Hello71 » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

jasondclinton wrote: post #112

Tehchops wrote: post #42

End-user Linux has definitely improved in the last few years. It offers a lot of attractive features for what I imagine to be the typical HN demographic. That being said, it's still got rough spots that OSX doesn't. It works great when it works, but when it doesn't.... Font rendering, display/compositor fragmentation etc... Inb4 the anecdotal "well it works for me I just had to download the xf86 font library and comp…

That's true: some things are easier on Mac. In particular, I'd say that using software that hasn't been packaged for your distribution is much easier on Mac. However, your example of fonts is definitely not one of those areas, anymore. Font rendering on Linux is as advanced and capable as any other OS including in the areas of kerning and hinting. It should just work without any user intervention and look great. I ag…

> Font rendering on Linux is as advanced and capable as any other OS including in the areas of kerning and hinting. It should just work without any user intervention and look great.

This isn't entirely true. AIUI, Apple enables LCD filtering and subpixel rendering by default, because it knows that you're using an LCD and what the subpixel order is. However, these are usually toggleable via the GUI, and even without them it usually still looks fine.

Re: So Long, Macbook. Hello Again, Linux

#120

Post by thejrk_ » Thu, Jan 10, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

vesak wrote: post #71

Man, this is so weird. I used Linux from 1996ish to 2017 and then just moved almost everything to Apple. I don’t remember the exact reason, but probably it had something to do with Wayland taking forever to stabilize, and the community starting to smell bad. And I’m happy, probably happier than before. Sure, Apple’s stuff isn’t perfect, but it’s way closer to it than any Linux combination I ever tried. The only thing…

I think finding something that works for you and fills your needs is exciting and people want to share their experience about it. The problem exist when people start to think what works for them will work for everyone and if you don't use X you're wrong. I want choice not necessarily change.