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IBM releases Elm-powered app

discourse.elm-lang.org

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Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#111

Post by elbear »

the_gipsy wrote: post #77
deltron3030 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't Storyboard based on components (parts) first (atomic design)? Elm is the opposite, it's focused on the whole which you then use as the basis for parts at actual design time (thinking about layout and hierarchy). So in a way Elm is about form following function (creating visuals from existing functionality), while most of the other environments are focused on function following form instead (creating functionali…

You can perfectly do the design-first process with Elm, I thought you were maybe accustomed to Storyboard or something like that. IMHO you can do design-first process with Elm just like with React. There is no Storyboard equivalent that I'm aware of, but I never found it useful enough but maybe it is, for toolkit/library designers. I have found that I work differently depending on environment. I do model/types/functi…

I'm don't mean to nitpick, but did you mean storybook instead of storyboard? That's the only project that I've found which sounds like what you're talking about

https://github.com/storybooks/storybook

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#112

Post by dkersten »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #2

I don't understand why this is noteworthy. I think maybe this is when you decide 'maybe our language has failed'. Or at least admit it's a toy language that hasn't been properly engineered to be effectively used commercially. When it's a 'worth mentioning' when a single app has been written in it by some dying company. I mean, imagine if we had a headline on the frontpage of HN for every app written in C or C++ or Ja…

> Functional languages are great toys but nobody uses them to get work done, almost without exception.

Just because you don’t use functional languages for serious commercial work and don’t personally know anybody who does, doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t too. Plenty of us use functional languages for serious commercial work, now or in the past. I’ve persobally used ClonureScript and know plenty of people who use Clojure. I know people who use Haskell. Jane Street famously use OCaml. Lots of people use Scala. Clearly an IBM team uses Elm. I mean, the article itself is a counter example to your statement.

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#113

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dkersten wrote: post #112
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #2

I don't understand why this is noteworthy. I think maybe this is when you decide 'maybe our language has failed'. Or at least admit it's a toy language that hasn't been properly engineered to be effectively used commercially. When it's a 'worth mentioning' when a single app has been written in it by some dying company. I mean, imagine if we had a headline on the frontpage of HN for every app written in C or C++ or Ja…

> Functional languages are great toys but nobody uses them to get work done, almost without exception. Just because you don’t use functional languages for serious commercial work and don’t personally know anybody who does, doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t too. Plenty of us use functional languages for serious commercial work, now or in the past. I’ve persobally used ClonureScript and know plenty of people who use Cl…

Both can be correct - some number of folks do use them, but they are vanishingly small in the sea of developers out there.

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#114

Post by the_gipsy »

elbear wrote: post #111
the_gipsy wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can perfectly do the design-first process with Elm, I thought you were maybe accustomed to Storyboard or something like that. IMHO you can do design-first process with Elm just like with React. There is no Storyboard equivalent that I'm aware of, but I never found it useful enough but maybe it is, for toolkit/library designers. I have found that I work differently depending on environment. I do model/types/functi…

I'm don't mean to nitpick, but did you mean storybook instead of storyboard? That's the only project that I've found which sounds like what you're talking about https://github.com/storybooks/storybook

Yes, totally. I must have it confused with iOS' storyboards.

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#115

Post by marcosdumay »

haskman wrote: post #54
_0w8t wrote: post #50

Elm is fascinating since it shows that with the right architecture functional programming for GUI is possible without hatches like monads or hiding state in closures or green thread stacks. Another things is that in Elm the state of the whole application is very visible. Typically just by looking at data structures and message types one gets how things work. The code just fills details.

I understand what you are saying, but - the whole point of abstractions is to "hide state". For example, what is nicer to write/read? Pseudocode - // Stateful state = {buttonClicked: false} render() { if(!state.buttonClicked) { return button({text: "Click Me", onClick: {state.buttonClicked=true}}) } else { return text("Thanks!") } } vs. // Implicit state render() { yield button({text: "Click Me", onClick}) yield text…

Hum... No. Abstractions can hide anything.

Besides, your example get much of its gains by hiding the behavior of that 'if' statement than by hiding that 'buttonClicked' stores the button data.

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#116

Post by chickenfries »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #87
StreamBright wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the people want freedom and not some North Korean style crap. The example I gave was explicitly displaying how it is possible to use something from JS on a type safe way. Not sure how could you hang yourself with that. I guess you are just very creative.

> North Korean style crap This confirms my belief that most criticisms of Elm are emotional responses, not rational ones. Allowing arbitrary JS functions to be called from wherever would indeed break everything. Want to use `Math.random()`? Whoops! There goes referential transparency. Want to use `document.querySelector()`? Hello runtime errors my old friend. Want to use `function(x) { return x / 0; }`? Yeah, have fu…

I literally have never experienced a bug because of the existence of Math.random(). I don’t think I’ve ever used it outside of a coding interview. Similarly, I don’t spend time debugging runtime errors caused by document.querySelector()? If I do it’s usually only once when I write the initial query. I don’t understand your last argument: why would I divide by 0?

Everyone’s relationship to their tools of choice has an emotional component. Check out this talk, you might find it interesting:

“The Pervert’s Guide To Programming Languages” https://youtu.be/mZyvIHYn2zk

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#118

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

chickenfries wrote: post #116
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> North Korean style crap This confirms my belief that most criticisms of Elm are emotional responses, not rational ones. Allowing arbitrary JS functions to be called from wherever would indeed break everything. Want to use `Math.random()`? Whoops! There goes referential transparency. Want to use `document.querySelector()`? Hello runtime errors my old friend. Want to use `function(x) { return x / 0; }`? Yeah, have fu…

I literally have never experienced a bug because of the existence of Math.random(). I don’t think I’ve ever used it outside of a coding interview. Similarly, I don’t spend time debugging runtime errors caused by document.querySelector()? If I do it’s usually only once when I write the initial query. I don’t understand your last argument: why would I divide by 0? Everyone’s relationship to their tools of choice has an…

Your logical fallacy is either Personal Incredulity[0], or Anecdotal[1], or both.

[0]: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

[1]: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#119

Post by [deleted] »

savanaly wrote: post #8

In a comment below the main post they say that the app they wrote is approximately 45,000 lines of code over 170 Elm files. That's one of the largest (and apparently most useful) Elm apps in the wild that I've heard of, and the fact that it exists and they had an overall good experience with it inspires me even more to try to learn and use Elm.

[deleted]

Re: IBM releases Elm-powered app

#120

Post by lenticular »

sraquo wrote: post #81
giornogiovanna wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scalatags is not a VDOM implementation, though, and the Elm architecture (one giant state machine) is very different to what you'd typically see in a Scala.js application. A closer analog, in my opinion, would be ClojureScript + Reagent, but even that doesn't feature Elm's focus around immutability.

ScalaTags is indeed not relevant here, but Scala.js has its fair share of reactive UI libraries such as my own Laminar https://github.com/raquo/Laminar

Your DOM builder library is also great for lower-level DOM manipulation. Thanks for your work, by the way.

https://github.com/raquo/scala-dom-builder/

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