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The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

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Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#101

Post by ethbro »

throwawaymath wrote: post #99
ethbro wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. Heroes have a place, precisely because they inspire. I get what you're saying, but in any system having an aspirational role model is a benefit!

> The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. I'm deeply skeptical of this. I don't want to assume your background, so please don't take offense to this. But I can only imagine someone is able to seriously believe this if they've never had anything more challenging than their own self-actualization and ambition. You can (and should) believe in yourself as fiercely as you'd like! But the…

I would argue the opposite (that self-belief is the hardest challenge in those in objectively bad circumstances), precisely because of what you phrase as '[these things] will break you down unless you're astronomically lucky.'

The manner in which they break most people down is by circumscribing ambition and self confidence.

A large part of my family goes into the hills of dirt poor mining Appalachia, so I wouldn't say I'm speaking to this from a privileged position.

When no one in your family has ever gone to college, why would you even think you could? Or have a different profession than your father? Or start a business? Or move to another town? Etc. etc.

There are certainly structural roadblocks that make things easier or harder, but I have yet to see someone succeed in something they never start. And a large reason they never start is because they don't believe they could ever succeed.

And that was my point. That heroes help us dare to believe, moreso that we otherwise would.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#102

Post by bhhaskin »

diob wrote: post #89
vertline3 wrote: post #56

We have this tendency to look at successful people and think we can imitate them and have their success. I see Bill Gates is always giving a list of his favorite books of the year. Sorry Bill, if I read your books, I won't be a billionaire. Well Jackie Chan as great, talented, funny as he is. No matter what, I will never be him. Survivor bias and luck play a large role beyond what hard work and pain alone do.

Right. A large part of success is definitely luck and random opportunity, but I will say that you still have to be prepared for those instances to take advantage of them(unless you have nepotism on your side, then you can coast to your heart's content). For us in the the lower / middle class, the best we can do is prepare as much as we can for the day we encounter luck or opportunity. No amount of preparation / commi…

I think you are correct. I would say there are things that one can do to improve their odds of random opportunity and luck. A good example of that is hanging out with the right people and staying positive & motivated. In a lot of ways it is like dating. You need to be putting yourself out there. It isn't going to magically just happen. You have to make it happen.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#103

Post by chaostheory »

the_af wrote: post #90
chaostheory wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me dissect it. > Interesting how difficult and rough Jackie Chan's childhood was. He certainly succeeded, but at what cost? You echo the article's conclusion. You agree with its main idea. > This article reviews how Chan downplays the hardships he was forced to endure (e.g. being essentially sold by his parents as an indentured servant when he was seven years old, complete with beatings and dismal living conditio…

> You echo the article's conclusion. You agree with its main idea. No. The article is very long, draws many conclusions and ponders many aspects of Jackie's life and autobiography, and I only mentioned one aspect (a question, not a conclusion by the way). I'm completely silent on other issues raised by the article, such as Jackie Chan's opinions of freedom, his injuries, his relationship with mainland China, etc. So…

> Then why do you ask me?

Because from my perspective it seems like you had an opinion and then you backed away once I challenged it. You dance around it enough to pretend that the author didn't make a clear opinion.

> I only mentioned one aspect (a question, not a conclusion by the way)

It sounded rhetorical. Like with other religious wars, we can agree to disagree. From my perspective, I still feel that your original point was that you felt Jackie Chan was wrong "to focus on the end result, his success as an adult" instead of contemplating more on his hard childhood. I'm not sure why you'd back away from that opinion. While I disagree with it, it isn't exactly controversial either.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#104

Post by ethbro »

failrate wrote: post #92
maldusiecle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, believe whatever you like, but it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of people who were in Chan's miserable situation--indentured servitude, endless hours, extreme poverty--and worked hard and weren't able to become, you know, Jackie Chan. It sort of stands to reason that it has to be that way, too, for the whole system to work. Chan is able to be the celebrity that he is, specifically because there's only on…

Samo Hung was a fellow student of Jackie's. Other students at that Academy had careers in the fulm industry. It wasn't just luck: the ones who succeeded also worked harder and smarter.

Or as my father quipped, "It's surprising how much luckier people who prepare are."

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#105

Post by tunesmith »

"Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will do whatever they want."

Haha... wow, that circular reasoning is so tight it's almost not even a circle anymore. "Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will not be controlled". I have a theory that all circular reasoning can be reduced down to a (probably faulty) axiom or assertion.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#106

Post by vinceguidry »

stcredzero wrote: post #84
vinceguidry wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. Just because you signed a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get out of it. I'm not entirely certain where to draw the line.

> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. My own family history has a lot to do with indentured servitude. If you watch Korean historical dramas, you'll find the condition described as being a "servant" but at other times, the same condition will be described as being a "slave." In terms of being signed up as minors, exactly how d…

> In terms of being signed up as minors, exactly how do you draw the line?

I think minors need to be free to follow the wishes of their parents who are free to exercise authority as guardians. Interfering with that should be a human rights violation. But if the parents wish to send their kids to a boarding school, that has a long history of being a successful way of providing children with an education.

If Chan was sold into servitude by his parents, I think that's de facto slavery, you can't sell the personal autonomy of another person, not even your children.

> How about physical coercion?

Certainly. But there might be trickery involved as well, which should be considered criminal. If I offered you a well-paying job in Dubai, then when you got there told you you were only going to get paid a tenth and further charged you exorbitant rates for food and lodging, that should absolutely be considered trafficking.

I don't have all the answers. But certainly there's more to it than what we'd call kidnapping.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#107

Post by alistairSH »

stcredzero wrote: post #86
alistairSH wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Chan was sold into servitude while most of were still in primary school. The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s.

Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Wasn't the contract entered into by his parents? The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s. Was he kept under lock and key by armed guards willing to main or kill him to keep him from escaping? Or did he primarily think of it as working through a contract his parents had signed him up for?

Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? If so, there's no point debating with you - I find the practice morally reprehensible (and yes, the systems that make such an arrangement in any way palatable are also reprehensible).

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#108

Post by darkpuma »

larrydag wrote: post #32
vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be…

I've often heard of BUDS Navy Seal training that its not IF you break a bone or get hurt its WHEN. I agree it takes a certain personality.

I've heard people say similar things about SERE school (e.g. "they're allowed to break one of your bones"). It's not true.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#109

Post by SolaceQuantum »

stcredzero wrote: post #86
alistairSH wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Chan was sold into servitude while most of were still in primary school. The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s.

Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Wasn't the contract entered into by his parents? The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s. Was he kept under lock and key by armed guards willing to main or kill him to keep him from escaping? Or did he primarily think of it as working through a contract his parents had signed him up for?

Countered question of my own: Do you understand the plight of being an exploited child?

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#110

Post by SolaceQuantum »

tunesmith wrote: post #105

"Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will do whatever they want." Haha... wow, that circular reasoning is so tight it's almost not even a circle anymore. "Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will not be controlled". I have a theory that all circular reasoning can be reduced down to a (probably faulty) axiom or assertion.

The reasoning is steeped in connotation that you may have missed. Might I suggest an alternate reasoning: From the view of an oppressor, oppression is necessary to protect the oppressed from being able to choose socially harmful behavior. In this view, oppressing someone is actually saving them.
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