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No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

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Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#131

Post by drieddust »

nthot wrote: post #74
atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

Is it stepped at all? Do you owe nothing before 50k and then once you cross that threshold you now owe money? That would seem to incentivise staying below that threshold for a percentage of borrowers. I also have difficulty seeing the first benefit you list as being a benefit. I don't have a problem with people pursuing degrees in fields that aren't big money makers, but I also don't know that the government should b…

> I also don't know that the government should be in the business of incentivising people to study in these fields

That's interesting. So do you want government to only fund the vocational courses and allow the rich class to be the torch bearer in research, art, and culture because only they can afford it?

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#132

Post by idrios »

BearsAreCool wrote: post #127
atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

I have to at least partially disagree with #1 being a benefit. Universities and loans for universities should not be encouraging students to waste many years of their life for a degree which does little to help them get meaningful employment. Additionally, with at least the american student loan system as I am more familiar with it, neither the university or the bank offering the loan faces any repurcussions for enco…

In regards to your first point, most US students when they go to college don't have the life experience to know which degrees will give them meaningful employment. A kid who was passionate about reading and was encouraged by their teachers and parents to follow their passions would, unsurprisingly, be likely to pursue a degree in English literature. After they've graduated the real world hits them like a sack of bricks and they can't find a way to earn a living.

At this point they've lost those 4 years of their life, end up with unreliable sources income (gig economy, part time work, borrow from family, etc), they're bogged down with crippling debt, and the world tells them it's their own fault. They even feel deep down that it is their fault, but now they're resentful and bitter because they're suffering despite that they had been working hard just doing what they were told to do all along.

With this proposed kind of loan forgiveness, the years are still lost to them but at least they're not crippled with debt as they try to get out of the hole they've found themselves in.

I also think a system like this incentivizes universities to help students make money and be productive after college. Under the current system, schools will shake down anybody for what money they can get. If tuition is based on future earnings, the university is going to try to get the student to make as much money as they possibly can.

In fact, this system would likely swing the pendulum so far the other direction that it might kill colleges of art and literature because they would suddenly be deemed unprofitable to the university.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#133

Post by Haydos585x2 »

BearsAreCool wrote: post #127
atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

I have to at least partially disagree with #1 being a benefit. Universities and loans for universities should not be encouraging students to waste many years of their life for a degree which does little to help them get meaningful employment. Additionally, with at least the american student loan system as I am more familiar with it, neither the university or the bank offering the loan faces any repurcussions for enco…

In the Australian case neither the university or a bank is financing the loan. It's all the government. Most of the universities are public as well so there's less incentive for profit, although it does still exist.

Most people will probably earn over the minimum HELP repayment barrier over their lifetime and if they don't then I don't think they should be saddled with debt.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#134

Post by aphextron »

atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

The difference being that you step out of university with an internationally recognized and respected accredited diploma that will qualify you for other employment down the line. These programs are scams.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#136

Post by rjf72 »

idrios wrote: post #132
BearsAreCool wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to at least partially disagree with #1 being a benefit. Universities and loans for universities should not be encouraging students to waste many years of their life for a degree which does little to help them get meaningful employment. Additionally, with at least the american student loan system as I am more familiar with it, neither the university or the bank offering the loan faces any repurcussions for enco…

In regards to your first point, most US students when they go to college don't have the life experience to know which degrees will give them meaningful employment. A kid who was passionate about reading and was encouraged by their teachers and parents to follow their passions would, unsurprisingly, be likely to pursue a degree in English literature. After they've graduated the real world hits them like a sack of bric…

Just to hit on your last point (that result oriented loans could kill "unprofitable" university programs) I'd add that universities existed for centuries when, relative to the entire population, practically nobody attended them.

This "businessification" of university education is an extremely new thing. I know you didn't intend it this way but that comment in a way hits me like when the music industry was trying to claim that piracy would kill music. We could pass a law that any and all music could be copied indefinitely and for free which would indeed kill the music as a mass industry, but music would undoubtedly continue to thrive. We just wouldn't have so many Justin Biebers or Britney Spears. Darn.

And so too for education. Get rid of systems which motivate profit driven education (which is no longer an issue just at universities which are overtly for profit), and you don't destroy education - you destroy the artificial facade masquerading as education.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#137

Post by deepnotderp »

You know, it's funny, there's a lot of comments saying something along the lines of "college isn't just to get a job".

Which is really funny, since that's absolutely the primary reason why college educations are pushed. E.g. "if you don't go to college you'll end up working at McDonald's"

Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#138

Post by scarejunba »

wolco wrote: post #119
atiredturte wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed this in another comment more fully. For this version though, consider that even though it might be possible to do such a thing, the vast majority does not. You could potentially be sneaky about this, but the effort would not be worth the small savings you would make. The current HELP/HECS system doesn't just work on paper. It's been used successfully for a while. Remember, we are about repayments starting…

Economic freedom rank is a bit confusing. Comparing Canada to US the tax burden is listed at 65 for the US and 76 for Canada. Comparing income taxes, capital gains, local/provincial/state the US is much lower.

It’s fairly comparable at around 200k USD (converted to equivalent CAD). Total tax in SF isn’t all that much lower in the US.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#139

Post by daveFNbuck »

deepnotderp wrote: post #137

You know, it's funny, there's a lot of comments saying something along the lines of "college isn't just to get a job". Which is really funny, since that's absolutely the primary reason why college educations are pushed. E.g. "if you don't go to college you'll end up working at McDonald's" Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wh…

> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education.

You could try checking course requirements. Every college I'm aware of requires that students take classes in a variety of subjects outside their major before they can graduate.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#140

Post by kartickv »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #139
deepnotderp wrote: post #137

You know, it's funny, there's a lot of comments saying something along the lines of "college isn't just to get a job". Which is really funny, since that's absolutely the primary reason why college educations are pushed. E.g. "if you don't go to college you'll end up working at McDonald's" Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wh…

> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. You could try checking course requirements. Every college I'm aware of requires that students take classes in a variety of subjects outside their major before they can graduate.

Which doesn't provide the evidence the parent was looking for. Just because you take a variety of classes doesn't mean that they have a benefit. If they do, please give us the evidence.
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