Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters • Hacker News Board

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#121

Post by cc439 » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:56 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #114

cc439 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a scummy business but without it bail bonds wouldn't exist, or at least be as widely available as they are today. Maybe there are better systems for ensuring compliance with orders to appesr in court than that of Bail but as long as the concept of Bail exists, private Bail Bonds will have to be a necessary part of the system lest lower/no-income individuals find themselves with no recourse.

> It's a scummy business but without it bail bonds wouldn't exist, or at least be as widely available as they are today. And...is that bad? The availability of bonds factors in to the level at which bail in a money bail system is set to give reasonable assurance of compliance, so the main effect of available bail bonds is to make purchasing a bond instead of paying cash necessary by driving up money bail prices. > Ma…

I wasn't aware that California eliminated the cash bail shstem last year but my cursory review of its replacement leaves me thinking its lacking in its ability to both accurately identify those who pose a risk to society or a general flight risk. Replacing a system that allows anyone granted the right of bail to obtain it (via bail bonds) with enforcement carried out via the threat of physical apprehension with one that tries to predict the risk before release leaves enormous room for error/gaps/all-other-flaws.

It sounds good on paper but how does it account for a citizen of "good" character per the algorithm being charged with a major felony or violent crime? If they are innocent, there is a meaningful likelihood they are denied release, thus ruining their life. If they are guilty, there is a meaningful likelihood they aren't reputable enough to ignore the chance to cut off their ankle bracelet and go underground.

Are there any systems that allow for something akin to "bail" (as in a way to be releaswd from custody while awaiting trial while also holding the individual accountable to return) that rely on things asids from cash or trust in an "algorithm"? I'm currently doing some reading on the subject so don't jump down my throat, I'm just skeptical of any other system's ability to balance availability with accountability for those with few to no assets.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#122

Post by jopsen » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:01 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #77

Criminal investigations have to stand up to court scrutiny. Fugitive recoveries do not. I expect there’s a lot more misconduct where this came from.

The whole bounty hunter system sounds like something out of a bad movie..

I would be very surprised if it wasn't full of abuse stories.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#123

Post by User23 » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:02 AM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #109

40acres wrote: post #56

I think we need to reassess how we treat data generated by users via phones, devices and our digital activities. We had the concept of private and public property long before intellectual property became codified by law. I believe that we are entering a new phase which may require the development of a new type of jurisprudence around things like location data. I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I'm starting to believe…

How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals? I never understood the whole concept of “bounty hunters” in the US it’s not the Wild West anymore. The problem here is that “fugitive recovery” doesn’t need to meet any of the standards normal law enforcement does and unless they kill someone or injure bystanders there likely won’t be an investigation into their conduct and even if there is on…

The vast majority of bounty hunting cases are going to the addict/drunk’s door and reminding him he’s got a hearing to be at. The kind of glorifications you see on the teevee are virtually nonexistent.

As for the privacy aspect, well online privacy is observably a fiction and it always has been. Only naifs and fools believe otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence. Sure there ought to be privacy online in some idealistic sense, but there isn’t in reality so act accordingly.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#124

Post by icebraining » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:05 AM UTC

Tsubasachan wrote: post #99

jlarocco wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is kind of our own fault, though. Judging by the sentiment on HN when GDPR was coming into effect, if something like it came up for a vote in the US, a lot of HN users and other tech people would vote against it. There was no shortage of angry geeks posting articles about their service turning away EU users rather than complying with GDPR.

If you work in tech or marketing your salary comes from eroding privacy. There is a lot of money at stake here and people don't vote against their interests. Europeans aren't inherently better: if Facebook and Google were companies founded in Germany or France who knows if GDPR would exist.

Europeans aren't inherently better: if Facebook and Google were companies founded in Germany or France who knows if GDPR would exist.

The Data Protection Directive, which the GDPR merely extends and updates, is older than Google and almost as old as the web itself, and was an attempt to unify even older national laws regarding personal data. It's not a reaction to having "lost" the privacy-eroding race.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#125

Post by Whitestrake » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:10 AM UTC

21 wrote: post #65

Are we gonna talk about the Silicon Valley VC's investing in these shady companies? > Zumigo is a pioneer of mobile services providing _deeper insights_ into consumer behavior to help secure transactions, devices and identities. https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/zumigo > Intel Capital > Aligned Partners

Investors are gonna invest, right? They're there to make money. Presumably they believe the company's operations are legal and likely to provide returns.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#126

Post by zorga » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:12 AM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #109

40acres wrote: post #56

I think we need to reassess how we treat data generated by users via phones, devices and our digital activities. We had the concept of private and public property long before intellectual property became codified by law. I believe that we are entering a new phase which may require the development of a new type of jurisprudence around things like location data. I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I'm starting to believe…

How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals? I never understood the whole concept of “bounty hunters” in the US it’s not the Wild West anymore. The problem here is that “fugitive recovery” doesn’t need to meet any of the standards normal law enforcement does and unless they kill someone or injure bystanders there likely won’t be an investigation into their conduct and even if there is on…

> How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals?

Then you'd have to give up being able to afford bail; without bounty hunters, bondsman would have no recourse when you didn't show up to court and thus not much incentive to loan you bail money. You're not being legally kidnapped, you agreed to those terms when you borrowed the bond money for bail.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#127

Post by zorga » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:14 AM UTC

jmickey wrote: post #72

40acres wrote: post #56

I think we need to reassess how we treat data generated by users via phones, devices and our digital activities. We had the concept of private and public property long before intellectual property became codified by law. I believe that we are entering a new phase which may require the development of a new type of jurisprudence around things like location data. I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I'm starting to believe…

No need to invent new jurisprudence - if the location data can be used to identify an individual, it is personal data under the GDPR and enjoys all the rights and protections enabled by the regulation.

The GDPR doesn't apply to most of the world, it's awful legislation anyway. It's not your data, it's my data about you, I own it, it's in my databases, and if you don't want me to have it, you shouldn't have given it to me freely to begin with.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#128

Post by dogma1138 » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:14 AM UTC

User23 wrote: post #123

dogma1138 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals? I never understood the whole concept of “bounty hunters” in the US it’s not the Wild West anymore. The problem here is that “fugitive recovery” doesn’t need to meet any of the standards normal law enforcement does and unless they kill someone or injure bystanders there likely won’t be an investigation into their conduct and even if there is on…

The vast majority of bounty hunting cases are going to the addict/drunk’s door and reminding him he’s got a hearing to be at. The kind of glorifications you see on the teevee are virtually nonexistent. As for the privacy aspect, well online privacy is observably a fiction and it always has been. Only naifs and fools believe otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence. Sure there ought to be privacy online in some…

>The vast majority of bounty hunting cases are going to the addict/drunk’s door and reminding him he’s got a hearing to be at. The kind of glorifications you see on the teevee are virtually nonexistent.

I somehow doubt that's what they make the money on because they make money on bail skippers usually a percentage of the set bail.

In any case if you need someone to appear in court there is something we call a police force which should be used.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#129

Post by icebraining » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:16 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #115

jonahhorowitz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding: You should still be able to use services, without consenting to them selling your data, like you can under the GDPR.

Would your tune change if by not agreeing to sell your own data, the service charges you money?

If we're talking about the GDPR, the service can ask you to sell your data, and it can charge you, but it can't force you to choose between the two. Data ain't currency.

Re: Mobile customer location data is ending up in the hands of bounty hunters

#130

Post by coldtea » Wed, Jan 09, 2019, 12:20 AM UTC

kokokokoko wrote: post #120

coldtea wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US it is actually a big deal because data is not a "creative work" so it is not covered by copyright protection. It doesn't need (and shouldn't be) "copyrighted". It's enough that the law classifies it as private info, and protects it from any third party without an immediate consent.

As someone who has worked with a couple data aggregation startups, I find it surprising I am unaware of the laws that classify it as private info(or even the legal definition of what "private info" is). With that said, I am certainly not a lawyer and was never directly involved. Which particular laws are you referring to? Edit: I should mention I am aware of laws preventing the collection of certain types of data. Bu…

>As someone who has worked with a couple data aggregation startups, I find it surprising I am unaware of the laws that classify it as private info(or even the legal definition of what "private info" is).

As a European, I wasn't saying that you have laws that classify it as "private info".

I'm saying that you _should_ have (or get) some such laws.

Including laws about the "possession of that data" -- GDPR for example covers both collection and possession, and which cases either brushes against the law.