No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job • Hacker News Board

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#91

Post by MagicPropmaker » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

gigatexal wrote: post #24

mdasen wrote: post #3

How is this different from income-based repayment of federal student loans? While there are different programs, the general idea is that you pay 10% of your "discretionary" income for 20 years with the guarantee that your payments aren't higher than the 10-year payoff rate. The article doesn't really have information on the Purdue system other than saying that it might cost high-earning students 250% of the price of…

Because when the loan is forgiven after 20 years it looks like income. So you have to pay tax on your forgiven loan. If Lambda School can’t teach you well enough that you get and keep a good paying job then they take the loss not the tax payer. Also: advocating for keeping the old system by saying this new way is not different is the least Hacker News things I’ve ever heard. The student loan crisis is an existential…

It doesn't just _look_ like income. It is income. If I give you $100 as a loan then change my mind and say 'you can have it', you just made $100.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#92

Post by bassman9000 » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

IMTDb wrote: post #85

austenallred wrote: post #76

Hey, co-founder of Lambda School here. Yes, some countries have similar structures, where you pay after a certain threshold. The difference is: 1. In those structures the school gets paid no matter what, the taxpayer just swallows the cost. With Lambda School we will literally go out of business if a large percentage of our students don't get jobs. That causes a lot of stuff. For example, we have an entire sales team…

It might be cynical but it seems you are moving from a bad system to another bad one. In the current system, students are the customers, in your new systems, students are the products. How will you ensure that your private interest are aligned with individuals, and society needs ? You are currently avoiding that issue by targeting high demand/high paying jobs but on a larger scale those issue will arise

How does changing the paying method change the roles in the transaction? At worst (eg financing a car or house) it adds a new role, but customer remains the same.

If there's an issue, it seems to me it's the fact that students shouldn't be treatef like customers, specially by the State.

How will you ensure that your private interest are aligned with individuals, and society needs

How is the current system achieving that?

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#93

Post by woggy » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #82

atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

> ~$19k USD Was this with room and board? FWIW, there are many college degrees in the USA that are in the $7k/yr range, and many of then were around $20k total prior to the last round of state-level austerity in the USA. Getting a US college degree for under $20k is still very possible if you a) commute and b) do the first two years at a community college (typically closer to $2k/yr, or $18k-$21k for 2 years cc + 2 y…

Living in a dorm is not very common in Australia - atleast this was my experience in Sydney. I did not have many friends who lived on campus. Most students commute from home, and among my circle of friends most of us lived with our families.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#94

Post by atiredturte » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:50 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #82

atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

> ~$19k USD Was this with room and board? FWIW, there are many college degrees in the USA that are in the $7k/yr range, and many of then were around $20k total prior to the last round of state-level austerity in the USA. Getting a US college degree for under $20k is still very possible if you a) commute and b) do the first two years at a community college (typically closer to $2k/yr, or $18k-$21k for 2 years cc + 2 y…

Australians tend to stay in the same city for college, so room and board are generally not required. Most students live at home with their parents. All students have access to government assistance in the form of centrelink [1] (though centrelink is a beauracratic pain to get through), and out-of state students are entitled to more.

In terms cost, UNSW is one of the top universities in the country. (EDIT: this is an ambiguous sentence, I am sorry. I mean that UNSW is one of the top universities, and cost is still lower than many US universities) I understand that US college can be done on the cheap, but it's definitely not the norm. You can always find work arounds I'm sure, but I was just emphaising that going to a top uni for this price sans-hassle is very much the norm here.

On top of this, it's important to note that even minimum wage jobs here pay pretty well (the highest by buying power in the world [2]). Thus, even if you are doing university and working part time you can do ok.

[1] https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/subjects/paymen... [2] https://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/top-10-national-mi...

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#95

Post by atiredturte » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:51 PM UTC

woggy wrote: post #93

throwawayjava wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~$19k USD Was this with room and board? FWIW, there are many college degrees in the USA that are in the $7k/yr range, and many of then were around $20k total prior to the last round of state-level austerity in the USA. Getting a US college degree for under $20k is still very possible if you a) commute and b) do the first two years at a community college (typically closer to $2k/yr, or $18k-$21k for 2 years cc + 2 y…

Living in a dorm is not very common in Australia - atleast this was my experience in Sydney. I did not have many friends who lived on campus. Most students commute from home, and among my circle of friends most of us lived with our families.

Agreed. Although as someone who has studied in both the US and Aus (did an exchange semester at Georgia tech), I'd say that living on campus does have some benefits, socially and academically.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#96

Post by mimhoff » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:51 PM UTC

nthot wrote: post #74

atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

Is it stepped at all? Do you owe nothing before 50k and then once you cross that threshold you now owe money? That would seem to incentivise staying below that threshold for a percentage of borrowers. I also have difficulty seeing the first benefit you list as being a benefit. I don't have a problem with people pursuing degrees in fields that aren't big money makers, but I also don't know that the government should b…

> Is it stepped at all? Do you owe nothing before 50k and then once you cross that threshold you now owe money? That would seem to incentivise staying below that threshold for a percentage of borrowers.

Once you earn over the threshold your HELP repayments apply to your entire income. So, yes, at low incomes you get a pretty significant tax increase when you cross the threshold. I think they should make it marginal like regular income tax is...

https://www.studyassist.gov.au/paying-back-your-loan/loan-re...

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#97

Post by mimhoff » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:53 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #86

nthot wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it stepped at all? Do you owe nothing before 50k and then once you cross that threshold you now owe money? That would seem to incentivise staying below that threshold for a percentage of borrowers. I also have difficulty seeing the first benefit you list as being a benefit. I don't have a problem with people pursuing degrees in fields that aren't big money makers, but I also don't know that the government should b…

The payments work the same way as tax brackets, so say 10% of your salary above 50k. Would you keep your salary lower to stay in a lower tax bracket?

Sadly they don't work like income tax. If you go into the next bracket, you owe the new rate on your entire income.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#98

Post by tholman » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:54 PM UTC

nthot wrote: post #74

atiredturte wrote: post #48

Australia has a system that, while different, has similar perks to this. We have a government loan system called HELP (formerly HECS). Basically students can get a zero interest government loan (rises with inflation), and only need to pay it off once they make above a certain threshold ($51,957 according to the official website[1]). The payments are deducted as a percentage of your income, with the payments increasin…

Is it stepped at all? Do you owe nothing before 50k and then once you cross that threshold you now owe money? That would seem to incentivise staying below that threshold for a percentage of borrowers. I also have difficulty seeing the first benefit you list as being a benefit. I don't have a problem with people pursuing degrees in fields that aren't big money makers, but I also don't know that the government should b…

Up until recently, if you left the country, Australia had no real way to make you pay back the loan since they wouldn't track your income and would see no tax return. Last year new rules came into place to claim back income from people who had left without paying their loans, and will claim a % of your income (before tax, I believe) if your income is > $13,968 ... I ended up paying the whole loan in one sum so I didn't have to keep double reporting incomes, so I guess the system has worked.

> https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Study-and-training-suppor...

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#99

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:55 PM UTC

nateabele wrote: post #33

ChrisLomont wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they just lure students to the school helping them fill out student aid and loans and then give them subpar educations with curriculum being taught like it has been for years but they don’t care to change or innovate because the school has already been paid by an entity — the US education department who has deep pockets. Total tuition loans outstanding is around $1.5T. Total US Education Dept annual budget, 70B. Med…

> The debt is from private lenders, who do have incentive to ensure borrowers pay back. Not necessarily. Private banks issuing federally-backed student loans want you to default, because then they double their money. See here: http://www.collegescholarships.org/research/student-loans/

> Private banks issuing federally-backed student loans

Don't exist. They used to, before 2010, though (the propagadagraphic you link obliquely alludes to that with it's reference to the “Obama changes” that it does not explain, perhaps because they render the flowchart entirely irrelevant.)

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#100

Post by throwawayjava » Tue, Jan 08, 2019, 11:56 PM UTC

atiredturte wrote: post #94

throwawayjava wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~$19k USD Was this with room and board? FWIW, there are many college degrees in the USA that are in the $7k/yr range, and many of then were around $20k total prior to the last round of state-level austerity in the USA. Getting a US college degree for under $20k is still very possible if you a) commute and b) do the first two years at a community college (typically closer to $2k/yr, or $18k-$21k for 2 years cc + 2 y…

Australians tend to stay in the same city for college, so room and board are generally not required. Most students live at home with their parents. All students have access to government assistance in the form of centrelink [1] (though centrelink is a beauracratic pain to get through), and out-of state students are entitled to more. In terms cost, UNSW is one of the top universities in the country. (EDIT: this is an…

> In terms of cost, UNSW is one of the top universities in the country.

This is certainly the major difference.