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Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

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Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#51

Post by apl »

axod wrote: post #44
gruseom wrote: post #33

It's a bad sign that most of these comments (about 20, as I'm typing this) are trying to talk this kid out of his enthusiasm for Python in defense of -- heaven help us -- VB.Net. Come on, people. If we can't do better than that on Hacker fricking News, perhaps the doomsayers are right after all and this neighborhood is done. Hold on, newsisan, there are thousands of Python hackers here. Let's see if any cavalry ride…

I'd say there's likely more VB jobs around. Secondly, learning a crap language first is often a really good idea. It shows you what not to do. It's like having a failed startup and then having a success - you learn from that failure. And thirdly, it just doesn't matter that much. You should be learning programming. Not programming.

And thirdly, it just doesn't matter that much. You should be learning programming. Not programming.

That is precisely why it matters so much. There's a general misconception that somehow, programming languages are fundamentally equal; that there's nothing specific a programming language brings to the table. I think that's false.

VB.NET is a relatively shitty language, and will make many essential programming concepts more opaque than something very clean and straightforward and transparent like Python. (Also, on a somewhat unrelated note: I'd say that on average, the VB.NET jobs are a lot less interesting than the Python ones.)

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#52

Post by whatusername »

gruseom wrote: post #33

It's a bad sign that most of these comments (about 20, as I'm typing this) are trying to talk this kid out of his enthusiasm for Python in defense of -- heaven help us -- VB.Net. Come on, people. If we can't do better than that on Hacker fricking News, perhaps the doomsayers are right after all and this neighborhood is done. Hold on, newsisan, there are thousands of Python hackers here. Let's see if any cavalry ride…

As one of those defending VB.net -- let me be clear: Newsian should go and learn python. Go and get something like this: http://greenteapress.com/thinkpython/ and go learn it.

But Newsian's teacher -- they should teach what they know.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#53

Post by krschmidt »

http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/python-teaching.htm won me over, and I now use Python exclusively in my introductory programming class. I find we cover about 3 months more material than when we did C++.

But barrydahlberg has a valid point - VB.Net is a decent language for a first course. Originally we had an alternative first programming course that used VB.Net. A lot of kids liked it better just because it was so easy to make a graphical program. We used to get a lot of kids interested in programming just by having them play with the colors of their VB.Net programs.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#54

Post by SudarshanP »

As most of them here are suggesting... learning "programming" should be the real motive. Any language your teacher is excited about should be just fine. In fact I would suggest that even things like Scratch(http://scratch.mit.edu) can be an awesome step towards learning programming without being bogged down by syntax. You can even write Android apps using http://appinventor.googlelabs.com/about/

Ultimately you will have to learn syntax though but it won't be a big deal. If you want to know what the current "fashion" is, you can check out http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.... In that list u can see python cross vb...

but when it comes to the big picture and long term, all that matters is if you can pick up a new language in a few days.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#55

Post by kenjackson »

biot wrote: post #38
3dFlatLander wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proprietary or not, it is an accessible language and IDE. The idea of learning an open language is a good one. But, I think at the high-school level, it would be more important to expose students to something with a low barrier of entry. I don't mean the language, but the entire package. With VB you install one application, and you get an environment where you basically type code and press a play button to get it to…

How accessible is VB.NET for all those kids who own a Mac?

I hear Mac's run Windows pretty well.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#56

Post by ern »

cubicle67 wrote: post #5
tkahn6 wrote: post #2

It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. - Edsger Dijkstra

1. VB.net ain't your daddy's basic 2. I respect Dijkstra, but I think he was wrong on this

It says a lot about our knowledge about teaching and learning programming that pithy quotes from 35 years ago are still regarded by many as being relevant.

I mean, has anyone actually studied the academic outcomes of programmers who started on BASIC or VB, versus those who started on other languages? Has anyone determined if programmers who start out in VB make more errors than programmers who started out in say, assembler, or C, or Python, to any statistically significant degree?

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#57

Post by dansingerman »

roel_v wrote: post #50
dansingerman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Community is surely the big win for Python. If you manage to get a 17 year old interested in programming, then where better to take the next step than start hacking on some open source projects written in Python? Where does a 17-year old go next with VB.net?

You'd throw a 17 year old with 40 hours worth of 'introduction to programming with Python' into hacking on Django or Scons? Good luck with that. (not that I know of any open source projects in VB.net, but still)

No, but if a 17 year old chooses to start looking at the source code to work out whats going on, then I think that would be great.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#58

Post by kaitnieks »

I think teacher should stick with VB.NET. Why? Because it enables students who like experimenting to get results quickly and this is extremely important if you want to get children enthusiastic about anything. Yes, python is free and open, and I bet many of the students who will become interested in programming will switch away from VB.NET anyway, but right now at this moment the ability to put a button on form with a mouse, doubleclick the button and write in a simple line to display messagebox of swearwords on click, is the most important factor of them all. And it looks like real, professional application window, I mean how cool is that?

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#59

Post by julius_geezer »

Disclaimer: I don't know VB.NET, I barely know VBScript,

I do think that Python would make an excellent intro language, given that there is relatively little syntactic cruft hiding the bones. (To be sure, it was not my first language, so this is speculation.) PythonWin is an excellent environment. wxPython makes it straightforward to put together GUIs if that's what you want to do. You can write to the Google App Engine and deploy to the web for $0.00.

The point that others raise, that it would be bad if the teacher is also learning an unfamiliar language, is a valid one. I don't think you want your instructor to be stuck fighting the language.

Have you considered as an alternative doing LPTHW on the side with your friends?

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#60

Post by johnconroy »

Mmmm... overall I'd say don't try to talk him/her 'round. Don't get me wrong... I love Python and am ambivalent towards vb.NET. In defense of VB, it's good for teaching in the sense that students feel like they're accomplishing something... that they're actually building something. They can rattle out a gui and integrate it with the Windows API (for something like a Paint app) easily. Which is cool for them.

Having said that, I think Python is better for students (vb is so unlike other languages). However you're likely to piss your teacher off if you come off all 'hurr u r so stupit, you should teach Python' to him. Easy to piss ppl off that way.

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