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Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

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Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#401

Post by jerguismi »

simias wrote: post #128
rkido wrote: post #53

Linux is the perpetual scapegoat. They selected a middleware, Coherent UI, that didn't work properly on anything but Windows. They also didn't make proper use of the Steam runtime, a mistake that continues to cause issues. Most games don't make these mistakes, so this isn't really representative of the larger state of Linux gaming. It's worth pointing out that the devs did make a legitimately good attempt at making L…

Technically speaking I'm sure you're right. In practice it doesn't really matter though, if they did it that way it's either because it was easier or because that's the way they were used to doing it. The fact that "technically" it's not Linux's fault doesn't really matter, unless you're more interested in the moral concept of guilt rather that the practicalities of making a Linux port of a game. Why should they chan…

It is relevent in this context, because other developers know they can avoid the said issues if they do things a little bit differently.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#402

Post by yellowapple »

zamalek wrote: post #212
pfranz wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Windows, I often get prompted to install C++ runtime dependencies when installing. One big thing Steam did was manage multiple installs of DirectX for each game. It's just a matter of Linux being cost/benefit to overcome these things, like they have on Windows.

Which is probably way at the back of the developer's minds: the main audience of Linux is happy to compile from source (either themselves or via a downloaded package).

Exactly. Quite a few of the "problems" with Linux development ultimately stem from trying to shoehorn Windows-oriented expectations into Linux development/deployment. Very few applications in the Linux world target specific distros themselves; instead they publish their source code and leave the actual distro-specific finagling to distro/package maintainers (sometimes those maintainers are also developers, but they're regardless treated as separate concerns).

Of course, quite a few game developers are curiously averse to publishing any kind of source code, which tends to thus require compatibility efforts to happen on the developer side instead of the package maintainer side. This can still be worked around by targeting a specific distro (say, Ubuntu or SteamOS) and letting package maintainers for other distros apply whatever workarounds they deem necessary to get the app running outside of a "supported" environment (see also: Steam, Spotify, Slack, etc.).

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#403

Post by astrodust »

taeric wrote: post #173
astrodust wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally nobody cares about Linux gaming. It's not even press-worthy because of SteamOS. Anyone who games on Linux does it for the adventure of the process, not because it's convenient. If you ported your game to the Atari ST or the Amiga you'd get more press and probably more sales.

Rhetoric like this is less than effective. Some of us do game in Linux because we don't want a Windows box. So, literally is demonstrably false. Now, statistically, I realize we don't exist. But at absolute levels, we do.

You've got to recognize you're an outlier.

In practical terms nobody plays games on Linux unless they're using something like SteamOS or, technically, Android.

Given how ridiculously hard it is to get a simple application to run across all the various distributions of Linux that exist, expecting something as complicated as a game to run at all is asking way too much.

Windows is ridiculously hard to support, but at least it has sales volume to justify the work necessary to get a game launched. Linux doesn't.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#404

Post by astrodust »

JAlexoid wrote: post #327
astrodust wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally nobody cares about Linux gaming. It's not even press-worthy because of SteamOS. Anyone who games on Linux does it for the adventure of the process, not because it's convenient. If you ported your game to the Atari ST or the Amiga you'd get more press and probably more sales.

>adventure of the process, not because it's convenient There's no need for adventure for me. I prefer to code on Linux and not need to reboot into Windows. Playing games on Linux IS the convenient way for me.

Most people just get a game console or play games on their phone. A very tiny group of people do what you do on Linux.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#405

Post by astrodust »

isugimpy wrote: post #308
astrodust wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally nobody cares about Linux gaming. It's not even press-worthy because of SteamOS. Anyone who games on Linux does it for the adventure of the process, not because it's convenient. If you ported your game to the Atari ST or the Amiga you'd get more press and probably more sales.

There's nothing adventurous about using your preferred operating system and enjoying being able to have a working game experience. I've spent significant time in all 3 major OS options over the last few decades, and came to the conclusion that Linux is the one I prefer. A few years ago, I resigned myself to either rebooting to Windows or running Windows in a VM when I wanted to do any modern gaming. The significant a…

It's like Mac gaming. It sucks. Unless it's a for-Mac native title, which is exceedingly rare these days, it's going to be trash because the publisher invariably uses some crappy DirectX to OpenGL wrapper that cripples performance and crashes constantly.

Developer kits like Unreal and Unity have helped a lot here, but those are far from flawless. Even those struggle with Linux because there's just way too many distributions and way too few standards.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#406

Post by CJefferson »

michaelmrose wrote: post #399
CJefferson wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I just tried installing the latest Ubuntu. I could go and track the version Dell ships for my laptop, and make sure I never upgrade it, but surely that proves the point that Linux is a pain to run?

How did we get from run the latest long term service release which ships every 2 years like clockwork to never update?

You said I should only run the lts version which dell ships...

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#407

Post by pfranz »

yellowapple wrote: post #402
zamalek wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is probably way at the back of the developer's minds: the main audience of Linux is happy to compile from source (either themselves or via a downloaded package).

Exactly. Quite a few of the "problems" with Linux development ultimately stem from trying to shoehorn Windows-oriented expectations into Linux development/deployment. Very few applications in the Linux world target specific distros themselves; instead they publish their source code and leave the actual distro-specific finagling to distro/package maintainers (sometimes those maintainers are also developers, but they'r…

I'll grab source code if I'm doing development or something obscure, but I feel like packages have been pretty solid and widely available since the early to mid 2000s. When working with source code I'll almost always install to a custom PREFIX--but if it's just an app the source is the last resort.

All of the commercial packages I've used at work for the past 15 years target either one or a handful of distros. Even the open source stuff that's either too new or outside of the default repos I much prefer to install from a package; turbovnc, grafana, chrome, etc. The few games I've seen have worked the same way as other commercial user-oriented apps.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#408

Post by yellowapple »

bluedino wrote: post #112
antris wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when major games being launched on Mac was worth a mention, or even a full feature in an Apple Keynote. Nowadays games are being released on the Mac constantly and nobody bats an eye. It's a better time to be a Mac gamer than ever before.

It would be even better if they had decent GPU's available without spending $1000+ on an external setup.

Or if they went with Vulkan instead of rolling yet another half-baked graphics API while also deprecating OpenGL because reasons.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#409

Post by reitzensteinm »

jungler wrote: post #397
reitzensteinm wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth has a generational gc and can't handle a little bullet spam?

Nearly any per-frame instancing tends to hit generational boundary cases due to ambiguity over lifetimes that the VM can't account for. They usually don't result in GC pauses that are large enough or frequent enough to make the game unplayable, but they do prevent the desired "solid 60hz". It's actually a huge thorn in the side of fast gameplay code. Recommendations always turn towards engineering a static allocation…

OP was at a game jam, though. They were building a prototype. If they were going for a smooth 60hz, they were doing it wrong.

If there were pauses causing significant gameplay issues, it's doubtful GC was the specific cause. There was probably something very wrong being done - my guess would be instantiation of a managed resource like a texture or 3d model.

I doubt generational GC came in to it, and feel like the OP is prematurely celebrating his own insight in to what was causing the issue.

(Then again, maybe it was a VR game and pauseless 120hz was the goal.)

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#410

Post by antris »

detaro wrote: post #395
antris wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying I would want that. My original point was that the person I was replying to said that they won't believe Linux gaming would ever be predominant. I'm saying it already is.

Would you say the same about FreeBSD gaming then, given the PS4 runs FreeBSD?

You can easily fork Android and create an OS on top of it that connects with the Android ecosystem. Can't do that with PS4 and its OS and ecosystem.
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