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Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

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Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager, my experience has been that the average unsolicited resume belongs to someone who can't implement fizzbuzz. (this has a lot to do with the population that spams resumes though i believe) My experience has also been that most raw junior candidates need significant handholding to implement anything into a typical production system at first, and that the learning curve from there varies greatly. Wha…

My guess is that he's taking issue with this argument that I'm not quite sure was made: "The market is flooded with people who cannot code, therefore it's easy to find a job as a junior engineer" The market could in fact be flooded with people who cannot code (I don't know for sure). Assuming that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to get a job as a junior dev (speaking from someone on the interviewing s…

On the market being flooded, I think it varies greatly depending on where you are and whom you are with. With my current job I am part of a competent team of smart people but on my last job it seems that IQ was in short supply, for candidates, vendors, and even our "partners".

Even though the last job ended months ago, I'm still trying to unconvince myself that everyone in this world is stupid and incompetent, because that was what it felt like.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#162
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I no longer believe this. You should try interviewing "software engineers" that claim to have 10 years of experience architecting and coding in various languages and cannot write a function that doubles the value of each number in an array.

You should try interviewing as a software engineer with 10 years experience. They never ask you to double the value of each integer in an array. They ask you to find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, or to find all sub-matrices in an NxM matrix with a positive determinant in a matrix of arbitrary size, or find all words in a dictionary that can be constructed by concatenating other words in the dictionary. The…

I don't doubt that you've had poor interviewing experiences with companies that ask you to do things that are not representative of the job you're interviewing for. This is a well-known problem in our field, and as a fellow engineer with 10 years of experience, I've also encountered it.

It's also not my point at all.

The comment I was responding to was advocating that there is a myth surrounding the flood of people who don't know how to code. This is not a myth.

Doubling an array of integers is one of the easiest questions I can possibly think of, and use it to build interviewee confidence as a warm-up before diving into pragmatic questions related to the job.

Unfortunately, there is a not insignificant number of candidates who claim experience and yet are unable to write `.map(x => x * 2)` or use a for loop.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#163
post #140
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At some point, a student requires one-to-one mentoring and repeatable reinforcement. Like learning a second language or playing the piano. It’s entirely possible to be a self-taught pianist. It’s also entirely possible to learn a second language without ever speaking to someone else in that language. What you can’t realistically do is become conversational , because you cannot practice that skill in isolation. Simi…

Case in point: I'm self taught and have a junior manager job in software engineering. I had a lot of good resources and got some guidance, but I never went to a boot camp or had a dedicated mentor. It was just a lot of "learn something, apply it as much as I can to the job I have, keep learning, keep trying to understand the big picture." Eventually I developed enough knowledge to get hired as a programmer and moved…

Good job. I think determination and willpower like you have is fairly rare, at least where I'm from (Midwest US).

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#164
I'm the founder of Ruby online school, not giving a link for two reasons: 1) the name of the school doesn't matter too much 2) it's in Russian anyway.

So what I found is that students find jobs pretty quick. Some of them after 2-3 months from the ground up, from nothing! Absolute beginners! (the entire course is for 6 months, 100 hours of video).

I was thinking why is that, because here is some quotes from reddit:

1) "why is it still so damn hard to get your first job?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/6zxrzt/t...

2) lots of interviews, no offers

https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/4s9foi/l...

3) "I graduated from GA Tech.. looking for entry level... position for over 6months but still nothing."

https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/6ypimg/r...

But in Russia it's different (99% of my students are physically located in Russia, I'm in US). There is huge demand for web developers. You can jump on the train after couple of months. Why it's so different than US?

And I found explanation: there is no Russian-speaking cheap labour that can write code. Companies in Russia need Russian developers only because English isn't number 1 (or number 2) language in the country. For US (and English-speaking market) it's the opposite: lots of English-speaking cheap labour, while locals are struggling to pay their bills and asking for more $$$.

$30/hour for any US-based programmer is not a big deal, but for some countries it's a huge deal. So countries like India, China, Russia, Ukraine all contribute to that. For companies it's easier to hire someone from these countries with experience, rather than finding local for the same money without experience.

So the bar is pretty high if we're talking about US. If you're based in Russia, it's probably the best time ever to become web apps developer, especially FOSS webdev: sanctions force government to switch to open source solutions and demand is damn high.

I'm also author of the book about Ruby for absolute beginners, if you're interested https://leanpub.com/rubyisforfun

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is ML even a programming job? I see it more like data science, 10% programming 90% math. Edit: 3% programming, 30% math, 67% scrubbing data. Thanks for the correction shortoncash. :)

Most ML jobs are sitting around scrubbing data. The fun math part is like 5% of the job, and usually there's some guy (or a small handful of guys) that's a PhD who is hired to do all of that because he was in the research area before he left academia. I could be wrong, but this is my experience.

Agreed. We call that team "operations research" and they are all PhDs. The ML devs build the pipelines and deal with engineering concerns around having/moving/securing lots of data.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#167
post #37

Yes. There was a story on the front page also, just a couple of days ago Start with a Website, Not a Mobile App https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18824993

Did you read that article? They actually say when to NOT do a website first.

I found their web-first arguments mostly unconvincing. And kinda hand-wavy on certain points. Two relevant points, rapid MVP development and instant updating of your app I have to agree with. But the idea that desktop software pricing translates to people being willing to pay more for a website is a crock. People think websites should be free. It’s not just users who think that. I have to educate my clients why their business app that needs a login, data storage and access controls is not “just a website” and why they have to pay me significantly more to make it happen.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#168

Yes. I am the co-founder of Lambda School - (YC S17 - a CS education where the school doesn’t get paid unless you get a good job). Right now we see about 3 students/day get hired. You’ll likely hear a lot of people talking about how the market for juniors is flooded. That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code . If you can actually be a productive employee I literally know 100 companies that…

You're probably correct (I don't know enough about the junior applicant pool myself but I am going to speculate nonetheless), but 'cannot code' is vague, and I think this precise sort of vagueness creates confusion around: a.) What companies need. b.) What companies think they need. c.) What prospective programmers think companies need.

What companies actually need (or should need, if they're solving some problem), I'd argue, is people who are capable of solving domain problems in structured ways. This has everything to do with logic and almost nothing to do with 'programming' or 'coding' in the sense that I believe most people understand those words today. This is a skill that has very little to do with knowing xyz language, framework, or even paradigmatic abstraction and everything to do with having familiarity or mastery of both recent and ancient mathematical and logical principles (algorithms, data structures, computability theory, set theory, lambda calculus, etc.) Of course, the way we actualize these skills is through programming languages, but programming languages themselves are not the important part (at a high level).

I think a lot of hopeful and ambitious autodidacts unfortunately miss this, as the bulk of (I'd wager) free resources for learning 'how to program' do not do an adequate job of conveying the fact that programming is ultimately the application and encoding of abstract principles into a concrete solution for a particular problem domain. This effectively leads to a pool of job-seekers that are well versed in the latest lower order abstractions (as these are encoded in programming languages, e.g. iterators or a particular framework or paradigm) and not higher order abstractions (e.g. what makes a particular construct iterable, what structural properties suffice to assert 'iterability' of a set or structure, or e.g. how should one compare paradigms and select between paradigms for a particular problem).

At the end of the day, a lot of this doesn't matter. Most people in the programming field do just fine without diving too deeply into the heart of computability or information theory (some demanding positions in the field, of course, are exceptions to this). But I think if we want to produce better 'coders' an important step lies in disambiguating logical/mathematical/programmatic problem solving from the concrete practice of 'programming' (using a particular language with particular resources, paradigm support etc.) From what I can tell, University CS programs do an effective job at this (e.g. classes on algorithms and data structures and architecture are all distinct) but many free resources, I feel, do not. This may be the culprit in the production of that bevy of people who 'cannot code'--they can program, but they can't problem solve computationally or model problems well (I can't do this myself). And I think it leads to the following common realizations on a.) b.) and c.):

a.) Companies need people who can determine and analyze sets of potential structured/logical/computational solutions to problems. b.) Companies think they need people who are good at using xyz tool in particular because xyz tool/language/paradigm etc. is popular, new, generally thought to be useful, etc. c.) Prospective developers think they must learn xyz tool/language/paradigm/framework because companies seem to want that. They do so, never exploring the fundamentals behind xyz tool/language/framework and move on to learning the next xyz ././. next year to stay relevant.

The result is that many companies are bound to the solutions, abstractions, patterns etc. that xyz tool/language/whatever supports and thus they're actually quite okay hiring people who cannot really 'code'.

In truth you probably only need a few smarty-pants engineers behind the important stuff. The majority of folks can enter the workforce only having a basic knowledge. The ones that are curious enough will start to dig into the general/abstract principles behind computation and eventually learn enough to fill the shoes of the big boys. Most entry level programmers can get by just fine with a thirst for further knowledge, the ability to notice, adapt to, and use patterns that are already in place, and some very basic analytical skills. Of course, many hiring practices don't necessarily reflect this, which leads to the classic condition of "in the interview I had to show that I could do abcd with data structure xyz and implement algorithm hjk to solve problem p in t time but on my day job I just write against apis."

Disclaimer: I am not a programmer or software engineer. This is just my sense of the state of affairs as a curious outsider (I do work in the software field, but my job role is different).

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#169
> Is the Web Dev job market in a good enough state

There's a lot of demand for devs across the board (this is my gut feeling from participating in hiring at my current company). This probably varies a lot across teams in a company, across companies in an industry, and across industries.

One strategy I recommend is to narrow down your target employer market so you can get more specific answers. What industries are you interested in? What are some companies you might want to work for? Do they have an engineering team (most likely). Then figure out what roles they have open and do your best to position yourself for those openings once yo u start interviewing.

> that I should risk more time and money?

What kind of self-learning have you already done? Can you give us some information about the courses / tutorials you've been following? Is this something you find yourself enjoying?

More details about your situation would help. For example, if you've mostly been following a coursera course for the last six months that's heavy on the theory side, I might recommend that you spend more time with something more hands on like building a web app to solve a problem you have.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#170
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should try interviewing as a software engineer with 10 years experience. They never ask you to double the value of each integer in an array. They ask you to find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, or to find all sub-matrices in an NxM matrix with a positive determinant in a matrix of arbitrary size, or find all words in a dictionary that can be constructed by concatenating other words in the dictionary. The…

I don't doubt that you've had poor interviewing experiences with companies that ask you to do things that are not representative of the job you're interviewing for. This is a well-known problem in our field, and as a fellow engineer with 10 years of experience, I've also encountered it. It's also not my point at all. The comment I was responding to was advocating that there is a myth surrounding the flood of people w…

I'll agree, you were making a more narrow point that there are in fact a lot of candidates who can't do extremely simple coding exercises (I agree about that as well)

This assertion is often mis-used (a slight of hand to resolve the question of why companies reject so many candidates yet claim that anyone competent will find "100 companies that will hire you today".)

However, you were not making that second assertion, you were insisting that something that is real is not a myth, fair enough.

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