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The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

jhsph.edu

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Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#411
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more complicated, the insurers essentially tell providers how to practice (ie prescribe this generic not the name brand, don’t prescribe 30 day Rx prescribe 90 day and don’t see/treat them in the meantime, etc...) and if the providers don’t listen the provider gets dropped from the network and either the patients are forced to new providers who the insurers control behind the scenes, or more and more the patient…

Insurers control care to reduce costs. The upward pressure on prices is from providers. In terms of these insurers who control providers, can you give an example?

Insurers are really controlling care to improve their “star rating”. Insurers are given a star rating by many things outside their control and in the domain of providers and pharmacists. That’s why they are dropping docs and pharmacies from their networks and otherwise buying them to consolidate the market and their control.

Next time you go to your primary doctor ask them how many faxes they get from the pharmacist instructing doctors to change prescriptions. Then ask the pharmacists where they get those instructions from to fax to the docs....the insurers.

I’ll admit the star ratings are related to costs, but short term costs. All this watered down care and cookie cutter treatment will lead to higher costs long term (ie hospitializations, waiting until health problems escalate instead of preventative care or proper management).

It’s also why the big groups have reinvented HMO, now called ACO, bc even they don’t want outcomes based payment, so with ACO they can get paid $x/patient per year and make the care fit. HMO failed from a cost and care perspective, again not in the short term but in the long term, and it’s literally being rebranded as ACO by the insurer/provider groups.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#412
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...rather they fear that it will result in them receiving worse care. In Canada, we have free healthcare. If you have the money you still can go private if you think you'll get a better care. But I guarantee you won't go private for hearth surgery. There's not market for it because the care you get is already the best in the public sector.

I'm Canadian and as far as I know you don't have a private option in most provinces. The only option is to travel to the United States and pay for it yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada#Restricti...

At least in Quebec and I know in other provinces, you have private medical clinics for medical consultations.

When it comes to surgeries, then they refer you to the public services.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#413
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of. As a Brit I don't think the UK is especially socialist. Also we don't generally think of the NHS as socialist more than Americans would talk about having a socialist army or police force. The fact that the above are funded by the government from tax in my view doesn't really make them socialist. It's more just a common sense way of funding some stuff. The dictionary has socialism as "means of production, dis…

Note that Bevan isn't saying that UK society is socialist (although he was probably in favour of it) - rather than the spirit of the NHS is socialist. Note that I would agree that it seems "common sense" for us in the UK and I'm definitely not keen on basing arguments on ideologies but it clearly doesn't seem "common sense" for people in the US.

And yet, in the U.S. we have a system like the NHS for veterans, plus a system like Canada's for everybody over 65.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of German primary care doctors don't even hire office staff. They prescribe whatever they want, swipe your medical card, and they're guaranteed to be paid in a week, no questions asked. Any sort of change towards this in the United States (and I agree, it's a good one) will be spun as losing jobs and crushing the economy, which is a very hard argument to defeat.

I haven’t come across a single doctor in Germany who didn’t have at least one office assistant to handle incoming patients, schedule appointments and do the bookkeeping. Most doctors seem to have more though these days as the administrative burden has increased. There’s also a trend for doctors to share office space and have a joint office and reception (also to reduce cost).

That makes sense. But many U.S. medical offices have people devoted entirely to billing insurance companies and fighting with them over what will be covered.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm convinced that healthcare is an impossible problem to solve. You need to travel more. The German system, for example, is very old, very simple and works very well.

I like the healthcare situation in Germany but normally you would have to wait months for a surgery, if it's not very critical. An appointment with a specialist can also mean waiting weeks or months.

That's not that uncommon in the US either though. My mother had an issue that required seeing a dermatologist, and just getting in to see a dermatologist was initially going to take about 6 months. After calling for a month, she was eventually able to get her wait down to 2.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#416
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that book too, and agree it's phenomenal. It's not just about capping insurance profits. The countries doing the best also have price controls on the healthcare providers. Doctors make a lot less money. On the other hand they generally don't have to pay for medical school. France, Germany, and Japan all have similar systems, according to the book. They have private nonprofit insurance, some kind of mandate to…

Absolutely true. As a doc, the US problem boils down to a cultural issue that can be summarized as: "there is no reason my money should pay for the care of others, but if I personally need care, then it should be of the absolute best quality and should be provided until my last breath no matter what" The people maintain the system themselves by insisting on that, and that is the root of every other problem. Before al…

You: "if I personally need care, then it should be of the absolute best quality and should be provided until my last breath no matter what"

Your healthcare industry: "if you personally need care, then it should be of the absolute best quality and should be provided until your last cent no matter what"

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#417
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of. As a Brit I don't think the UK is especially socialist. Also we don't generally think of the NHS as socialist more than Americans would talk about having a socialist army or police force. The fact that the above are funded by the government from tax in my view doesn't really make them socialist. It's more just a common sense way of funding some stuff. The dictionary has socialism as "means of production, dis…

Healthcare is broadly a service and thus what hospitals, GP surgeries, etc. produce in the economy. The NHS is a socialised system based on socialist ideas and indeed can be seen as a socialist construct within a capitalist overall economy. Nothing inherently wrong with that, that's just objectively the way it is. Bevan just said it the way it is. Now, the military and police are regalian functions of the state. The…

"regalian functions of the state"

Sorry to nitpick, but does "regalian" mean something else than emblems or insignia of royalty?

A credible sovereign state generally needs some force projection capability within it's political domain, hereditary monarchy or not.

Hence military is definetly in a different category than healthcare.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that book too, and agree it's phenomenal. It's not just about capping insurance profits. The countries doing the best also have price controls on the healthcare providers. Doctors make a lot less money. On the other hand they generally don't have to pay for medical school. France, Germany, and Japan all have similar systems, according to the book. They have private nonprofit insurance, some kind of mandate to…

Ok but why focusing on the insurance systems that are still sub-par compared to Italy, UK and Spain where the single payer system yields even better results for less money?

The book did cover the UK and Canada, and found they did not get better results for less money. The author didn't visit Italy or Spain.

For quality results, the book used rankings by international organizations, based on statistics like "cure rate after diagnosis of major disease." For cost, it used percentage of GDP and cost per capita. Germany, France, and Japan were tops in quality, and Japan was also the cheapest at 5% GDP. Germany spent 13% GDP but with expansive coverage.

Incidentally, the UK is not single payer like we're talking about in the U.S. It's also single provider. All doctors in the system are employees of the NHS, much like the VA in the U.S.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Number two for sure. You are almost guaranteed to be seen by an out-of-network provider. It does not matter if you go to an in-network hospital/ER, the providers go out of their way to work a couple hundred miles from home just to bring in the big OON prices. Out of three visits to in-network ERs (in two different states) in the last seven years, how many do you think resulted in crazy charges from OON providers? If…

I’ve been to the ER twice in the last 2 years. Once at the hospital blocks from my house & once while traveling for work 800 miles away. In neither case did I get charged out of network charges. In fact in the 25 years I’ve paid for mine or my families health care I’ve never seen what you describe over lots of ER visits. There are lots of things wrong with the US health system, providers systematically trying to get…

Your experience is the only experience. Good point.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not an unreasonable charge for an MRI and I’d argue that you got off quite lightly. You can’t diagnose many of the potential problems shoulders have from an x-ray but a good clinical examination will catch many of them, with an MRI for confirmation. Labral tears would be an example of this.

For a second I read your comment as liberal tears, and had to do a double-take. :) Speaking to the 500$ charge, are you saying that is a typical cost around the world for a MRI? Is there something about the machine's cost that justifies this or are you just saying that a 500$ charge is typical in the american system?

And here I thought my last 120 EUR MRI was very expensive... (in France, of course)
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