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$1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

cnn.com

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Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#251

Post by growlist »

JAlexoid wrote: post #236
growlist wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally they are poor and impoverished, yes. Or they have a deal with the EU and US. Or are tiny exceptions like Singapore. This idea that the UK is inevitably doomed outside of the EU is such a canard - fact is, it cannot be known either way until it happens.

Of course it's not doomed. But your position on "too much immigrants" is xenophobic, regardless of how you see it. You're literally ignoring the fact, that most congestion in London and S/E England is due to internal migration. You're blaming EU migrants for your discomfort, the ones that are most likely to work for a bit and go back to their countries.

EU immigration certainly doesn't help. Also please don't throw insults around without foundation, which I see that you've been able to do with impunity, which says something about this forum.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#252

Post by growlist »

JAlexoid wrote: post #238
growlist wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then why not encourage the population to breed, rather than sourcing our fertility abroad?!

Because forcing people to breed isn't exactly an efficient tool. Also - a population highly burdened with a lot of children tends to produce less value. It keeps more people out of work.

So let me get this straight: your position is that an ageing population can only be solved by migration?

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#253

Post by growlist »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #202
growlist wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every time someone tries to prove this by doing an unbiased economic investigation, it concludes that the negative effect is either nonexistent or tiny. That's a pretty bold assertion, not what a quick google reflects

Care to share the results of your quick search please?

The onus is on the person that makes the bold assertion to back it up, not on me to back up my challenge. But I'm getting used to the brigading now.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#254

Post by ksec »

justaguyhere wrote: post #102
myrandomcomment wrote: post #5

No surprise. Passporting (allow banks to operate in all members of the EU if they are licensed in one member) is a key to all of the banks operations. Every bank based in London for that purpose now has to open a regulated branch in an EU member. The next thing to kill the market in London will be the movement of Euro clearing to an EU member. Brexit is a self inflicted shot to the head. The number of people that sup…

I don't feel bad (much) for those who voted for Brexit - all they had to do was spend 15 mins googling and thinking. Even if they didn't understand the full impact of leaving the EU, it was plain then (and now) to see it is such a bad idea from any angle. I do feel bad for those who voted to stay - they're gonna suffer now, despite voting responsibly and sensibly. I don't know how to take this - one way to look at it…

A lot of people voted to leave the EU, not the EEA, which is all linked together in a gigantic pile of mess, and most barely understands it.

It was like the vote for Trump, the current way of living simply wasn't working out for many, ( Make America Great Again ) and they could not careless about the consequences, since the government had been ignoring them for far too long, they decided to take a vote into something different.

When I read ( arguably only limited in scope as I didn't spend much time on it ) how the remain were positioning themselves, most of their point were money, immigration, money, immigration, money. And really didn't answer any concern of the leave camp. It was like an internet argument, except happening in real life, You are Wrong, and I am Right. This does absolutely nothing to bring the two camps together. And to me It was very irresponsible from both side of the parties. At the end of the day, a representative democracy, normally people shouldn't have to be making this decision. Now it is the people that are going to suffer.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#255

Post by growlist »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #164
growlist wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ad hominem.

You have 0 objective references. I have at least 1 ( Wikipedia) and 1 that should be pro UK ( UK news paper)

You edited your post later to add those references, then made this comment!

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#256

Post by repolfx »

JAlexoid wrote: post #228
repolfx wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that looking for ideological consistency is a dead end in any large group of people, including for those who campaigned to remain. Some supported the EU project for ideological reasons (it's an ideological, utopian project after all) and others had purely pragmatic concerns. Some who argued for one side have switched to the other in the years since. Third, you are deliberately misrepresenting the nature and s…

Of course you're downvoted. Arrogant ignorance is just asking for a downvote. Citing foreign ministers of member states just proves how ignorant you are on EU itself. Again - single market isn't just trade. Read what four freedoms are, aka single market. The options for UK are clear: - if you want to leave customs union, you leave barrier free trading - if you want to restrict labour movement, you leave freedom of go…

So I'm guilty of "arrogant ignorance" and thus deserving of downvotes, but you describe the entire UK as a "deranged husband in a divorce" and then describe foreign ministers of member states as unciteable in a discussion about the foreign policy of member states?

This quality of debate is exactly the sort of thing that led to the Remain campaign losing so badly. I see the slogans and the insults but where are the arguments?

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#257

Post by repolfx »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #204
repolfx wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that looking for ideological consistency is a dead end in any large group of people, including for those who campaigned to remain. Some supported the EU project for ideological reasons (it's an ideological, utopian project after all) and others had purely pragmatic concerns. Some who argued for one side have switched to the other in the years since. Third, you are deliberately misrepresenting the nature and s…

That's a very odd claim to make because the EU itself is extremely clear that you're wrong. I won’t quite the rest, but I think you have misunderstood the EU’s position on this. Yes, as I said there are different forms the relationship could take. I described some of them. What there isn’t - as various EU bods you quote point out – is any other deal available at this point . It’s done. If the UK had engaged in this p…

I did have a big reply typed out yesterday but couldn't post it. Today I'll just observe that - again - what actual member state and Brussels officials are saying is that this is "the best and only deal that could have been achieved". Not - "it's alright but with more time we'll find something better" which is what you're claiming.

Again, I don't see how your position matches the reality of what is being said by the people in power. So I think I'm not the one who's misunderstood their position.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#258

Post by repolfx »

jayalpha wrote: post #205
repolfx wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually work in the City or in the financial industry? There are many cities in the EU. If London has no advantages other than being in the EU then why is so much financial work done there? By the way, unlike what many in this thread seem to think, being in the EU is of limited value for business protection. France and Germany via their proxies have been trying to pull financial work out of London for years -…

"Do you actually work in the City or in the financial industry?" Well, sorry for the pun, but you obviously don't: "By the way, unlike what many in this thread seem to think, being in the EU is of limited value for business protection. France and Germany via their proxies have been trying to pull financial work out of London for years - the EU Commission already tried to illegally ban Eurozone countries from using th…

I do work in both.

What sort of "benefit" does the EU's own civil service try to take away? There is no technical reason why euro clearing must happen physically inside the eurozone. And why do you think the Commission tried to pass a law that violates the treaties? It's because they know that the ECJ frequently ignores the treaties and laws, and does whatever is most advantageous to the EU's ideological goals regardless of what's written - see their ruling on cancelling Article 50 for an especially clear example.

I'm sure you can see why I might consider a "benefit" that the EU itself has tried so hard to illegally remove not an especially compelling argument.

In fact their position is still illegal. EU regs say any jurisdiction that is "equivalent" from a regulations perspective has financial access sufficient to perform clearing, but the Commission has decided that on the day of leaving, despite having still identical regulations, the UK will not be "equivalent". You don't have to be a lawyer to see that if two laws start out identical and neither is changed, then they are still equivalent, but the Commission claims they aren't. This is entirely predictable given their past behaviour, and this time, the court will take their side.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#259

Post by matthewmacleod »

repolfx wrote: post #257
matthewmacleod wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very odd claim to make because the EU itself is extremely clear that you're wrong. I won’t quite the rest, but I think you have misunderstood the EU’s position on this. Yes, as I said there are different forms the relationship could take. I described some of them. What there isn’t - as various EU bods you quote point out – is any other deal available at this point . It’s done. If the UK had engaged in this p…

I did have a big reply typed out yesterday but couldn't post it. Today I'll just observe that - again - what actual member state and Brussels officials are saying is that this is "the best and only deal that could have been achieved". Not - "it's alright but with more time we'll find something better" which is what you're claiming. Again, I don't see how your position matches the reality of what is being said by the…

No, that is not what I'm claiming.

The EU folk you are quoting are clear that this is the only deal that is available, and that is correct – but those statements are in the context of the red lines established by the UK, and the point in the negotiations that we are now at.

First, please refer to the graphic I linked to. It outlines how the conditions established for an EU exit deal by the UK limited the options that were available. These choices were almost entirely on the UK, and they are obvious to anybody with even a passing familiarity with the various bodies and constructs involved. The UK decided what conditions it was not willing to accept – free movement, ECJ jurisdiction; shared trade policy etc. – and the deal which has been achieved is the best deal possible given those constraints.

Second, realise that we are now at the end of the negotiation process. There is no appetite for renegotiating a deal under these circumstances. The UK and EU have negotiated for two years; if a different approach had been taken at the beginning of those negotiations, a different deal would have been possible. That is now no longer the case.

Both my statement that "a better was possible", and the EU's statements that "no better deal is now possible" are true.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#260

Post by zimpenfish »

justaguyhere wrote: post #132
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democracy needs an informed electorate to function. By your own admission, [the majority of] those that voted Leave didn’t understand what they were voting for. By that measure, I don’t believe “democracy won”.

That is why I said I don't know how to take this. Yes, a democracy needs an informed electorate to function. But it is the electorate's responsibility to keep themselves informed. There will always be fake news, click baits and outright wrong/illegal manoeuvers from someone or the other. IMHO, if the electorate can't take a few mins to understand what they are voting on, they don't deserve to vote.

> But it is the electorate's responsibility to keep themselves informed.

Is it? Surely this is why we have people we delegate to because most people aren't going to be spending their time trying to keep up with the finer points of macroeconomics within a multicountry trading block as it pertains to tariffs, etc.

Much like I delegate to a doctor when I'm ill - if he gave me the wrong treatment and said "it's your fault, you should be better informed", that would seem a little harsh, no?

[edit to correct a mistaken plural]

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