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The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

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Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#371

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #352
sbov wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true, because people actually hate insurance companies. The best propaganda is by the hospitals because no one ever seems to complain much about them. There's been a lot of revealing reporting over the past decade but people don't seem to care: the price of a procedure in two different hospitals in the same city can vary by 10x because they literally pull prices they charge from their asses. They tend to justify…

I think it's something in the American mindset. It's been said before, but Americans think of themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" when voting (hence why they consistently vote in the interests of the rich - everyone thinks they'll benefit from those tax cuts when they win the lottery/sell their startup/etc). Same situation here; "health care costs are for those sick losers. I'm not going to get sick,…

It is partly a cultural thing - a kind of cult of narcissism.

But those attitudes are carefully cultivated by the media. They don't just happen.

Congress and the Senate are full of corrupt leeches, and both parties are equally guilty.

Votes make no difference. Corporate money buys political careers, and it pays for both sides.

There are a few exceptions, cultivated to maintain the appearance of representative democracy, but they're rarely - if ever - allowed anywhere near policy.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#372

Post by OliverJones »

airstrike wrote: post #2

It's worth noting that the U.S. market does pay for the lion's share of patented drugs, effectively funding a significant portion of R&D that benefits the whole world years later when generics come into market (at least for those drugs which are not costly to manufacture, which happen to be the majority). I'm not saying this model is right. I'm just saying that doing away with it will have fundamental consequences to…

It's true. But the US drug marketers also move lots of money to television companies (watch any non-sports show and look at the ads). They finance lots of perks for prescribers.

Their clinical trials for new compounds are extremely expensive, freeway-tunnel-under-harbor expensive, Carl Sagan expensive (billions and billions).

They pay generic-drug manufacturers to refrain from making competitors to their compounds for which patents have recently expired.

They pull the enantiomer hack. Many organic compounds have a right-handed and a left-handed version of their structures, only one of which is active as a drug. Chemists call these two versions "enantiomers." The first patent on a compound covers the basic chemistry. Then, when the first one expires they patent the same compound, but only the purified active enantiomer. They then send their sales reps out to convince docs the newly patented drug is way better than the old one.

They lobby the US federal legislature to enact health care insurance laws (Medicare Part D) prohibiting the negotiation of prices.

They claim drugs bought in Canada aren't safe, even if they come from the same factory.

And, Purdue Pharma.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#373

Post by rscho »

arethuza wrote: post #369
rscho wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely true. As a doc, the US problem boils down to a cultural issue that can be summarized as: "there is no reason my money should pay for the care of others, but if I personally need care, then it should be of the absolute best quality and should be provided until my last breath no matter what" The people maintain the system themselves by insisting on that, and that is the root of every other problem. Before al…

"there is no reason my money should pay for the care of others" Isn't the cultural issue largely a idealogical issue - things like the UK NHS are avowedly socialist? In the words of Aneurin Bevan, founder of the NHS: " A free health service is pure Socialism and as such it is opposed to the hedonism of capitalist society." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan Personally, at least when it comes to healthcare, I…

Indeed, I think so too. Ironically, people essentially tend to ask for freedom of choice above all in the US healthcare system (I want complete price info, yada yada...) when the US system is evidently already the one offering the highest level of patient autonomy, probably worldwide (regarding the ethics principles of beneficence, nonmaleficience, Justice and autonomy). But guess what? That has a price, who would have thought?!

Another point is that IMO, you can't go extreme on one principle without impacting the others. Nonmaleficience is clearly a problem in the US.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#374

Post by bitxbit »

slx26 wrote: post #334

I speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure many people would share the thought: healthcare is the number one reason for which I'd never move to America. And there are a billion things for which you might want/not want to move to another country. And I'm healthy, and there are many other things that might seem crazy about America. I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid, but I do seriously hope for the sake of everyone (an…

This is odd. If you have a decent job and health insurance coverage, there’s nothing better in terms of healthcare than living in cities such as Boston. I can’t think of another city where you have access to multiple world-class hospital systems. Quality of care is simply unmatched.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#375

Post by javajosh »

slx26 wrote: post #334

I speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure many people would share the thought: healthcare is the number one reason for which I'd never move to America. And there are a billion things for which you might want/not want to move to another country. And I'm healthy, and there are many other things that might seem crazy about America. I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid, but I do seriously hope for the sake of everyone (an…

Having moved away from the US, healthcare turned out to be one of the best reasons to leave. Friends having babies are left with $30k+ bills. Someone else mentioned police and guns, and that's true too. The police are overwhelmingly terrible in the US, and not just to minorities. You must treat every interaction as a life/death situation, even traffic stops.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#376

Post by AndrewDucker »

bitxbit wrote: post #374
slx26 wrote: post #334

I speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure many people would share the thought: healthcare is the number one reason for which I'd never move to America. And there are a billion things for which you might want/not want to move to another country. And I'm healthy, and there are many other things that might seem crazy about America. I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid, but I do seriously hope for the sake of everyone (an…

This is odd. If you have a decent job and health insurance coverage, there’s nothing better in terms of healthcare than living in cities such as Boston. I can’t think of another city where you have access to multiple world-class hospital systems. Quality of care is simply unmatched.

Have you see the discussions above where people talk about being hit with bills for hundreds of thousands because of Out Of Network charges?

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#377

Post by arethuza »

rscho wrote: post #373
arethuza wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"there is no reason my money should pay for the care of others" Isn't the cultural issue largely a idealogical issue - things like the UK NHS are avowedly socialist? In the words of Aneurin Bevan, founder of the NHS: " A free health service is pure Socialism and as such it is opposed to the hedonism of capitalist society." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan Personally, at least when it comes to healthcare, I…

Indeed, I think so too. Ironically, people essentially tend to ask for freedom of choice above all in the US healthcare system (I want complete price info, yada yada...) when the US system is evidently already the one offering the highest level of patient autonomy, probably worldwide (regarding the ethics principles of beneficence, nonmaleficience, Justice and autonomy). But guess what? That has a price, who would ha…

Indeed, its why I dislike ideological based arguments - once people commit to an ideology they will stick with it way past the point where it is clearly not effective (and this goes for right wing and left wing ideologies).

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#378

Post by david927 »

stuxnet79 wrote: post #154
euske wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main reasons why I gave up career in the States and came back to my home country (Japan) was healthcare. I had a day surgery in the US and the whole experience (i.e. bills) just scared heck out of me. I am very happy with the system here. Everything is extremely efficient compared to the US. A little while ago, I had this mysterious headache and went to an orthopedist, dentist, psychiatrist, neurosurgeon t…

In Canada, if it was serious, half a year is actually even quicker than I'd expect. I'd really love to try out the Japanese healthcare system. As it stands, I'm convinced that healthcare is an impossible problem to solve.

I'm convinced that healthcare is an impossible problem to solve.

You need to travel more. The German system, for example, is very old, very simple and works very well.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#379

Post by fiblye »

joering2 wrote: post #159
euske wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main reasons why I gave up career in the States and came back to my home country (Japan) was healthcare. I had a day surgery in the US and the whole experience (i.e. bills) just scared heck out of me. I am very happy with the system here. Everything is extremely efficient compared to the US. A little while ago, I had this mysterious headache and went to an orthopedist, dentist, psychiatrist, neurosurgeon t…

Just got hemoroids frozen and cut with laser. Cost here in USA under premium insurance was $12,000. Went to Germany got it done on the same equipment in luxury stay for 14 days at $870. Plus $800 plane tickets. Meanwhile a friend of mine had a heart attack. As a Bank of America emplyee he had somewhat goog insurance that paid some. He was left with $180,000 bill.

It's crazy how even with insurance, things are far more expensive in the US. I can get xrays, blood tests, and medicine all together for less than $50 in my current country. In America, even with good insurance, I'd be looking at a couple hundred in fees. A simple piss test and antibiotics there for a kidney infection set me back $300. Here, I'd maybe pay $20 for the same treatment.

American insurance is merely rent seeking. It soaks up money like a goddamn sponge and offers absolutely nothing in return. It's literally worse than nothing since it's driving prices up. There are companies out there with--no joke--hundreds of thousands of employees, just growing bigger by the day, and offering negative value to Americans. UnitedHealth has 270000 employees. That's as big as Apple and Microsoft combined, but they've got nothing to show for it except colossally fat and minimally taxed earnings.

Re: The US spends more on healthcare for no gain says new report from Johns Hopkins

#380

Post by icebraining »

max76 wrote: post #330
adventured wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about to stop working out very well for Japan. The costs in their system are exploding higher rapidly and putting everything at risk. Their system won't remain intact for much longer at the rate healthcare costs are outpacing economic growth. Here's the relevant chart: https://i.imgur.com/s97bp9R.jpg "Health-Care Paradox Threatens to Add to Japan’s Debt Problems" "Japanese seniors, who enjoy the world’s longest…

Japan has a very unique healthcare crises based on it's aging population. The median age in Japan is over 9 years older than the United States and the population is continuing to get older. This crises would be very hard to deal with in any health care system, and it compounded by other pressures of taking care of an older population. Pensions programs are being stressed as the relative number of young workers are de…

It's not "very unique". Germany has a similar median age (47.3 vs 47.1) and low inflation rate, and much of Europe is not that far on both.
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