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We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

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Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of these numbers are very low. $30/h for Bitcoin Private? Seems inexpensive, what am I missing?

No one uses it. So you attack it. Cool. You can't turn it into USD or anything else, so you just spend $30 for nothing.

It's listed on several exchanges [0], so assuming you can carry out the attack, you could pretty easily profit. Not a ton of volume, but you could make some money.

[0] https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin-private/#market...

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#102
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think there would be any such prestige earned?

It’s not very often you get a chance to take down a currency. In 30 years from now you’ll be able to brag about how back in your day you took down entire cryptocurrencies with 51% attacks.

51% attacks are quite possibly wire fraud so I would refrain from bragging about them. More accurately, trying to double spend the coins is wire fraud.

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#103
post #63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if you tried to sell some significant fraction of the outstanding coins then the sale price would plummet, and you'd never actually reach $5M total. Yes. But it's the same for the market cap of company stocks. So saying that "the market cap isn't truly $5M" is missing the point a bit. The market cap can truly be $5M without $5M having been invested. That's just not what market cap means.

No, this is precisely why trying to calculate the market cap of a crypto-currency is pointless. A company is a productive enterprise, that produces value for you, if you sit on shares of it. Something like bitcoin is a purely speculative instrument, that produces no value if you sit on it. The market cap for a company is an imprecise proxy for all expected revenues, discounted by time[1]. The market cap for a currenc…

Strictly speaking there is not even a "market cap" for currencies, because the term applies, by definition, only to stocks of publicly traded companies.

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#104
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not on the largest coin for any particular interchangeable hashing algorithm then you're susceptible to these attacks, as people from a larger coin could simply turn their hardware against you and take you out. That means: For SHA256^2-specific hardware, Bitcoin (the real one, not Cash, Gold, or SV), for scrypt, Litecoin, and for anything mined on GPUs, Ethereum (not Classic).

Would you mind elaborating on this for someone unfamiliar?

Most proof of work coins use unique hashing algorithms and the miners are custom-designed ASICs that are extremely efficient at that one specific algorithm. If per chance, your coin uses the same algorithm as Bitcoin [ SHA-256(SHA-256(Block Header)) ], a small portion of the much larger Bitcoin mining community could turn their miners toward the smaller coin and quickly overwhelm their network to perform a 51% attack. The Bitcoin community can perform something like 40 billion gigahashes per second, most 'shitcoins' have total mining capabilities of 0.05x that if not less. It's a quick economic calculation for any miner or group of miners to decide to attack a smaller double-SHA-256 coin, as long as the total hashing power of the smaller coin's network is small enough and the coin valuable enough.

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#105
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think there would be any such prestige earned?

It’s not very often you get a chance to take down a currency. In 30 years from now you’ll be able to brag about how back in your day you took down entire cryptocurrencies with 51% attacks.

[deleted]

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#106

This is inevitable. Ethereum Classic (ETC) isn't the only currency such attacks have been successful on. The site https://www.crypto51.app/ puts the cost of running a 51% attack on ETC at ~$5k per hour. The incentive for running these attacks for profit becomes higher as the market cap of these coins increases, making long-term 'investment' in these coins nonsensical.

Yet another reason why Proof of Stake is destined to outcompete Proof of Work. ;)

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#107
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people from a larger coin could simply turn their hardware against you and take you out. Only at the expense of leaving their coin more vulnerable to a similar attack.

Not if you're much larger than the alternatives, which tends to be the case.

Or they could just hop amongst 50 $smallCoins, destroying each, before jumping back into BTC/ETH. Thereby destroying all $smallCoins and driving users into $bigCoin

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#108
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not on the largest coin for any particular interchangeable hashing algorithm then you're susceptible to these attacks, as people from a larger coin could simply turn their hardware against you and take you out. That means: For SHA256^2-specific hardware, Bitcoin (the real one, not Cash, Gold, or SV), for scrypt, Litecoin, and for anything mined on GPUs, Ethereum (not Classic).

Would you mind elaborating on this for someone unfamiliar?

Imagine all the Bitcoin miners out there right now using their ASICs to do extremely efficient hashing in the hopes of generating a block reward. Let's didactically suppose there are 100 such miners total.

Now imagine Dinkycoin comes along and releases their cryptocurrency that uses the same hashing mechanism for the block reward. Initially they have the block difficulty level pretty low as there aren't that many people participating in it yet.

Dinkycoin hopes that eventually enough people will join the network so that the total hashing power will be something approaching Bitcoin's. Great. But atm their total hashing power is a very small fraction of Bitcoin's total hashing power. I don't care enough to go find out how infinitesimal it would be-- enough to say very small.

Now suppose one of the Bitcoin ASIC miners gets bored one day and decides they don't like Dinkycoin. If they devote their ASIC to mining Dinkycoin they will immediately have more hashing power that the rest of the Dinkycoin network. That would virtually guarantee they solve every block of Dinkycoin and reap every reward. They'd easily have 100% control of the network at that point.

For example-- suppose Dinkycoin says you need 20 confirmations before accepting that a transaction "went through." Well, the Bitcoin miner can use their enormous hashing power to go back 20/30/whatever blocks and build a competing branch from that historical point. And since the miner has 1000% more hashing power (or whatever the number is) than the entire Dinkycoin network, they can build a competing branch from that historical point that will eventually have solved more/more difficult block rewards than the branch the rest of the network builds off the current branch. Once the Bitcoin miner has a competing branch with greater total difficulty than the rest of the network, the network must accept that branch as the winner. Well, the devs can decide to do otherwise for whatever professed reason and roll back/hard fork/whatever. But that kind of "do over" would degrade trust in the cryptocurrency itself. Users would be afraid of another future attack. After all, they were initially told 20 confirmations was enough. How do they know 40 confirmations is any safer? (And again, if the attacker has superior hashing power to the rest of the network it isn't meaningfully safer.)

Of course such a miner would be wasting all of their hashing power to screw with Dinkycoin's network. But to screw up most PoW cryptocurrencies you only really need 51% of the total hashing power. Even with that the attacker will eventually always beat the rest of the network to produce the "longest" chain. (Also, I think you can still cause problems for many cryptocurrencies with even less than 51% control.) Anyhow, do the math with the real numbers and you'll see that a real Bitcoin miner could devote a tiny percentage of their mining power and still own fledgling cryptocurrencies like the Dinkycoin example.

Moreover, they can trivially collude with the other 99 Bitcoin miners to devote an even smaller part of their hashing power to owning Dinkycoin, or even automate the process of smashing any coin that uses their same hashing scheme, based on any criteria whatsoever.

And it gets worse because in the 51% percent attacks I've read about in the real world, it isn't a big time miner with a grudge. Rather, it's someone who saw a weak point in a combination of a dinkycoin, an exchange, and several other moving parts and just rented a hashing rig to pull off an attack. Most PoW cryptocurrencies naively assume miners will choose greed over destructive tendencies without ever investigating whether those two paths are really mutually exclusive.

Edit: clarification

Edit: what happened to the web site that compares hashing power of the various SHA256-based coins, scrypt, etc.? Those orders-of-magnitude differences are quite instructive. But I can't find a site that lays it out nicely.

Re: We can confirm that there was a successful 51% attack on Ethereum Classic

#109
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not on the largest coin for any particular interchangeable hashing algorithm then you're susceptible to these attacks, as people from a larger coin could simply turn their hardware against you and take you out. That means: For SHA256^2-specific hardware, Bitcoin (the real one, not Cash, Gold, or SV), for scrypt, Litecoin, and for anything mined on GPUs, Ethereum (not Classic).

people from a larger coin could simply turn their hardware against you and take you out. Only at the expense of leaving their coin more vulnerable to a similar attack.

Not until the difficulty adjusts, and the attack takes less time than that to execute. And they'd have to be equally sized to actually leave the other coin vulnerable in any case, not asymmetric as in this case.
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