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Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

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Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#351

Post by wtracy »

nybble41 wrote: post #332
wtracy wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing to understand about Nvidia is that they use the same model as Apple: Produce really nice software, and use it to drive hardware sales. On the driver side, a lot of the features and performance advantages of Nvidia cards are rumored to be largely implemented in software. (Think of things like having a really good optimizing compiler for shaders.) Open sourcing that code would allow other brands to copy a lot…

> That said, my understanding is that you are committed to Linux, you still get a more robust OpenGL implementation (ATI used to be buggy as sin) and better shader performance with Nvidia hardware/software. That's probably true, if your use case requires the absolute best GPU performance. For me, though, the Intel and AMD open source drivers have gotten good enough that the marginal improvements possible with proprie…

You know, my advice is colored by the use cases I have: I'm usually in one of two situations:

First, situations where performance doesn't matter, and it needs to be cheap and Just Work. Intel beats everyone else here. (I'm really eager to see what Intel does with their upcoming discrete video card.)

Second, situations where performance is a Big Deal, and I'm willing to both pay money and jump through hoops to get it. Nvidia was winning here the last time I looked closely.

ATI products exist somewhere in the middle, and I can't remember the last time that I needed anything like that.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#352

Post by shock »

jandrese wrote: post #216
bryanlarsen wrote: post #45

Part of the problem in 2019 is that the vendor with the best drivers on Windows is the vendor with the worst drivers on Linux. (aka Nvidia).

Huh? The nVidia binary blob drivers work perfectly on Linux. Noeaveu is garbage and it's a shame that it's the default on popular distros.

I don't think it's fair to call nouveau developers' work garbage – they did a tremendous job with the resources they had at their disposal. They received close to no support from nvidia.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#353

Post by flukus »

ajvs wrote: post #182
simias wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically speaking I'm sure you're right. In practice it doesn't really matter though, if they did it that way it's either because it was easier or because that's the way they were used to doing it. The fact that "technically" it's not Linux's fault doesn't really matter, unless you're more interested in the moral concept of guilt rather that the practicalities of making a Linux port of a game. Why should they chan…

Have you not seen Steam Play these last few months? Because of Proton the majority of the top 250 highest rated games now run fine on Linux. I've been playing Skyrim, Witcher 3, Dark Souls 3, Castle Crashers, Overwatch, Heroes of the Storm, etc all of which are Windows-only but now WINE is so good it runs like it's native. Linux gaming doesn't suck anymore and it's coming to eat Windows lunch. Check out ProtonDB to s…

> Have you not seen Steam Play these last few months? Because of Proton the majority of the top 250 highest rated games now run fine on Linux.

Put me in the skeptical camp, I've been hearing the same line with wine support for nearly 2 decades and never found it to be remotely true.

I've had enough trouble getting the actual linux supported games to work. Some work with gnome+wayland, others only work in gnome+xorg, some silently fail, some just freeze, open source AMD drivers still crash the whole machine, etc.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#354

Post by reitzensteinm »

stcredzero wrote: post #259
rkido wrote: post #53

Linux is the perpetual scapegoat. They selected a middleware, Coherent UI, that didn't work properly on anything but Windows. They also didn't make proper use of the Steam runtime, a mistake that continues to cause issues. Most games don't make these mistakes, so this isn't really representative of the larger state of Linux gaming. It's worth pointing out that the devs did make a legitimately good attempt at making L…

Most games don't make these mistakes...it seems they weren't aware of some other best practices. I see this time and time again. Game developer runs into one of the difficult subjects in computer science/programming. Dismisses the difficulty. Gets themselves into trouble. Blames the library/product/platform. The last time I was at a game jam, I found myself explaining generational garbage collection to a game dev. He…

What on earth has a generational gc and can't handle a little bullet spam?

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#355

Post by [deleted] »

wtracy wrote: post #251
deathanatos wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just went through the process of getting NVIDIA drivers working on my brother's dual-boot Ubuntu. Here's the issues we hit: 1. You don't don't get drivers out of the box. The NVIDIA driver is non-free, so Ubuntu's (and other Linux distros') hands are tied here: they're not permitted to distribute it. Getting it is relatively easy (check a box, install a package), but you need to know that you need it, and then figu…

Last time I checked, both AMD and Nvidia expect you to download manufacturer drivers for Windows. I'm willing to jump through similar hoops for Linux. (Incidentally, when someone complains about how hard it is to install Linux, that person has usually never tried installing Windows without using the OEM disc from the manufacturer. Take that away, and Windows becomes a lot harder.) Linux support for Optimus and friend…

[deleted]

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#356

Post by ajvs »

the_trapper wrote: post #341
ajvs wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, my point is though that it's only in the past few months when Proton was released that the compatibility was good enough it actually mattered to game developers and players. By making Linux compatible with Windows games it gets rid of that objection "I'd move to Linux if it weren't for my games" which was the remaining objection for a LOT of people. Because Steam tracks WINE that's a very good thing, so they ca…

I'm not sure that this does encourage native Linux game development. Why bother putting in the porting work for 0.1% of potential users when someone else might do the work for me via Wine/Proton.

Compatibility is a stepping stone to increasing the 0.8% (actual numbers) Linux population on Steam to higher numbers. If 2% or even 10% of users were Linux-based then developers would have second thoughts about choosing DirectX over Vulkan for example when it makes it more difficult for them to reach those customers.

Also the "no tux no bucks" philosophy many Linux users take in avoiding paying for non-native games.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#357

Post by ajvs »

flukus wrote: post #353
ajvs wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not seen Steam Play these last few months? Because of Proton the majority of the top 250 highest rated games now run fine on Linux. I've been playing Skyrim, Witcher 3, Dark Souls 3, Castle Crashers, Overwatch, Heroes of the Storm, etc all of which are Windows-only but now WINE is so good it runs like it's native. Linux gaming doesn't suck anymore and it's coming to eat Windows lunch. Check out ProtonDB to s…

> Have you not seen Steam Play these last few months? Because of Proton the majority of the top 250 highest rated games now run fine on Linux. Put me in the skeptical camp, I've been hearing the same line with wine support for nearly 2 decades and never found it to be remotely true. I've had enough trouble getting the actual linux supported games to work. Some work with gnome+wayland, others only work in gnome+xorg,…

Proton only got announced in the past few months. You can view on ProtonDB reports from actual users and what drivers/hardware they use.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#358

Post by ajvs »

zmw wrote: post #312
derefr wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re coming at this from the perspective of someone who wants to set up a PC primarily in order to play games, and probably wants to try out every game under the sun. Of course, you’ll install Windows. Try instead coming at the question from the perspective of someone who already has a Linux workstation (e.g. for work) and wants to do as little as possible in order to play a few games—maybe the ones their friends a…

People who own a Linux workstation at home and just want to play a few games is vastly outnumbered by people who own a Windows desktop at hone and just want to play a few games. Probably at least 100 to 1. And the former group, with the “almost works” compatibility, will be a much bigger maintenance burden per customer. Heck, I’d bet money that the Linux casual gaming crowd you described is also heavily outnumbered b…

You're neglecting the crowd that have Windows at home and want to stop using it also. If gamers can have the exact same UX on Linux then that's one of the biggest obstacles to switching solved.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#359

Post by bwat49 »

izacus wrote: post #334
bluescarni wrote: post #56

> We started working on the game in 2012 > Issues specific to Linux were almost entirely graphics driver related, and unique to the platform. So this is essentially a rant about linux graphics drivers circa 2012?

Are they any better in 2019? Last I checked the anything beyond desktop compositing features is still a tyre fire of lying capabilities, broken functionality and wishful thinking. nVidia being by far the most stable while lacking integration with modern Linux APIs.

"Are they any better in 2019"

..Yes.

Not to say they don't still have issues, but the linux gpu driver situation is vastly better than it was in 2012. AMD drivers especially has improved massively since then.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#360

Post by pbhjpbhj »

learc83 wrote: post #68
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They still represent a vastly disproportionate amount of work for how much extra money they get you. // (With a sarcastic tone ...) So you spend 1000 man-years developing your AAA title, which you release for MS Windows only. Then someone makes a WINE wrapper on their w/e off and you start selling on Steam as being able to run (but not supported) on Linux. Now you find so many more Linux users filing bug reports to…

That's not what happened in the article (tweet). They released a native Linux version.

Sorry, I thought the thread was about the broader subject of supporting Linux gamers rather than Planetary Annihilation alone. The title should probably be changed.
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