He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him • Hacker News Board

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#51

Post by HedgeSparrow » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #35

analyst74 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also massive corruption problem in the police force, because citizens don't really have effective ways to "watch the watchers". And stronger libel law will definitely be used against people who criticize the police, rightly or wrongly. That being said, misinformation is also a huge problem. So maybe we'll have to find other ways to more effectively hold individuals accountable, whether they're abusing instit…

> There is also massive corruption problem in the police force Is this really true or just the impression given by cherry-picking the worst possible cases nation wide and amplifying them via media? Define "massive". If you got pulled over, would you be legitimately worried about being tazed or abused?

Ah, so you're asking what race analyst74 is.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#52

Post by yholio » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:14 PM UTC

nsedlet wrote: post #10

This is probably an unpopular opinion, and I'd want to think this through more, but I've been feeling recently that libel laws in the U.S. ought to be stronger. We have a massive problem with propagandists (especially on the right, but also the left) using blatant lies to manipulate opinion. The net result is a huge amount of anger & distrust. The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to the…

> In this case, accusing a specific police officer of being corrupt with zero evidence IS an awful thing to do.

I strongly disagree. A policeman is a representative of the state, he chose that job freely and he is getting paid for it, he can have personal insurance and legal support paid by the taxpayer. If libel is a routine professional hazard for policemen, they can request a raise and we as a society will pay more to hire such men, just as we pay more to hire people willing to risk their lives in the line.

A citizen on the other hand, has no such liberties and is paying for the whole show. The least he can do, when he feels he's being wronged, is to call out those who are responsible. I agree they should be liable for libel damages and I understand that might not deter some poor people.

But the idea that libel from homeless people against government officials is an awful affliction that must be stopped with criminal punishments - that must be rejected wholeheartedly.

> Note that the standard for criminal libel requires the person to know they are lying, and that has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

The article notes that is very little stopping a policeman to abuse a person while that criminal liability lingers. He can easily make that person spend a few nights in jail, can coerce them into self-incrimination and can even get a conviction out of lower status individuals with little power to defend themselves.

Nothing good can come out of jailing people that criticize public officials.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#53

Post by darkpuma » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #49

darkpuma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the UK's notion of libel were applied to the scenario of the article, Robert Frese would be required to prove that his statements were truthful, rather than the police/prosecution proving Robert knew he was lying. That's obscene. Think about how hard each of those would be to prove. To prove he knew he was lying would almost require that he admitted it in writing or was recorded admitting it. But for a man like Ro…

If you are going to defame someone, ought truth be a basic requirement? How can you prove a negative; how can cops prove they aren’t corrupt? Much easier to prove something happen rather than proving something didn’t happen, unless there is a specific incident in question.

Being able to prove the truth of what you say ought not be a legal requirement. If you want somebody prosecuted for their speech, you should be forced to prove they were knowingly lying.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#54

Post by yayana » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

darkpuma wrote: post #50

yayana wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what you think I missed. It's annoying to always use Trump, but it makes sense to use the person in the position of President to demonstrate that the law without discretion would net big fish. IMO, law enforcement/DA discretion is ALWAYS a violation of civil rights. Laws would be less prevalent and less severe if they had to be applied equally. If you go through the mental exercise in obvious cases then y…

What you're missing is that civil defamation suits are not at the discretion of prosecutors.

I am talking about whether Trump is theoretically guilty or not guilty of criminal defemation if 1(NH) or more (23) states claimed their jurisdiction applied and why that being discretionary in those states is therefore extremely problematic to our civic system.

I'm not sure why you are interested in civil defemation law.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#55

Post by davvolun » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:21 PM UTC

basilgohar wrote: post #44

roenxi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have more objections to that than I am going to fit into a single comment, so I'll try to summarise the top few: 1) The incentive structures around libel laws are horrible. If you give the US Congress moral and constitutional authority to pass something like what the UK has they will make it very hard to criticise US politicians. 2) "especially on the right, but also the left" is wrong. All media organisations are…

> 2) "especially on the right, but also the left" is wrong. All media organisations are routinely wrong on all issues - there was an anecdotal named law for this but I've forgotten the name of it, where if the media reports on something that the viewer understands it is obvious all the reporting is wrong, but then the viewer assumes that reporting on subjects they know nothing about is correct. One subgroup can't be…

Wow, thanks for linking to that.

Note that the "Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect" is a discussion point by a popular novelist, not a well-researched psychological concept. Frankly, without deeper research into the concept, it's a quote from an famous person.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#56

Post by openasocket » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

nsedlet wrote: post #10

This is probably an unpopular opinion, and I'd want to think this through more, but I've been feeling recently that libel laws in the U.S. ought to be stronger. We have a massive problem with propagandists (especially on the right, but also the left) using blatant lies to manipulate opinion. The net result is a huge amount of anger & distrust. The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to the…

Since you cite the UK law, it should be noted that (at least I'm pretty sure) the UK no longer has criminal libel laws.

I'd be OK with the police suing him for defamation, but he should not serve jail time.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#57

Post by bovermyer » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:34 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #24

bovermyer wrote: post #9

Just because he was arrested for criminal libel doesn't mean he will be convicted of it. The article does a good job of presenting a high level overview of criminal libel: what it is, what the arguments around it are, and so forth. Read the whole thing.

> Just because he was arrested for criminal libel doesn't mean he will be convicted of it. Doesn't matter. Can still lose money (e.g. by taking time off of his work) and can still be harassed (even after the case ends), and can still have his life made a living hell by casual police and friends activity.

He also has prior arrests for similar problems, including a libel suit where he was convicted for wrongfully disparaging a life coaching business.

I'm not convinced of his innocence here.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#58

Post by darkpuma » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:48 PM UTC

davvolun wrote: post #55

basilgohar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2) "especially on the right, but also the left" is wrong. All media organisations are routinely wrong on all issues - there was an anecdotal named law for this but I've forgotten the name of it, where if the media reports on something that the viewer understands it is obvious all the reporting is wrong, but then the viewer assumes that reporting on subjects they know nothing about is correct. One subgroup can't be…

Wow, thanks for linking to that. Note that the "Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect" is a discussion point by a popular novelist, not a well-researched psychological concept. Frankly, without deeper research into the concept, it's a quote from an famous person.

It wouldn't find any traction if it didn't ring true with a lot of people. I don't need it to be a "well-researched psychological concept" if I've personally experienced it.

Years ago when local papers were still relevant, there was a local paper article about me and three other people. They got the details hilariously wrong. Everything was totally backwards. There was no plausible motive for malice, they just got everything wrong because the reporter was lazy or something. Didn't take good notes. After that I still kept my subscription to the paper and didn't doubt the accuracy of other stories in that paper, even from that same journalist.

So years later when I see the Gell-Mann Amnesia quote for the first time, the pieces all click. Plainly I had been afflicted, and I see no reason to think I'm the only one.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#59

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

darkpuma wrote: post #30

coldtea wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season Sounds like a better world!

Every critic of those politicians would be in jail too.

Why would anybody bother to criticize them if they're going to jail at the end of their campaign anyway (as is the premise in this thread)?

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#60

Post by darkpuma » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 11:24 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #59

darkpuma wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every critic of those politicians would be in jail too.

Why would anybody bother to criticize them if they're going to jail at the end of their campaign anyway (as is the premise in this thread)?

Surely you understand that people criticize murderes who are being sent to prison; you don't question why they bother. Why would people stop criticizing a politician simply because they know that politician will be going to jail?

This whole conversation has become very silly. It's plain that criminal libel is an awful idea, we can joke about silly scenarios that might unfold if people facing criminal libel charges were required to prove their innocence, but current criminal libel laws with a normal burden of proof are already being abused and doing real damage to the lives of real people, which isn't very funny.