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He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

nytimes.com

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Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#21

Post by darkpuma »

qbz wrote: post #16
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, but the princple remains. He bad mouthed the police so they arrested for it. In a country like the US where it appears that unduly high bails are set. (thousands of dollars for people on welfare may as well be a million) Getting arrested could easily mean the lose of freedom for a extended period of time. If that is the penalty for saying something, true or false. It suddenly becomes something people are afraid…

He said an officer is corrupt and that the chief is covering it up. The NYT calls this "disparaging", but it clearly goes way beyond badmouthing.

Those are very tame accusations to level against civil servants. They may be totally false, but far worse is regularly stated by people every day. Arresting people for unjustified accusations against the police is obscene, the potential for abuse is way too high.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#22

Post by coldtea »

nsedlet wrote: post #10

This is probably an unpopular opinion, and I'd want to think this through more, but I've been feeling recently that libel laws in the U.S. ought to be stronger. We have a massive problem with propagandists (especially on the right, but also the left) using blatant lies to manipulate opinion. The net result is a huge amount of anger & distrust. The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to the…

>The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to their viewers. Other countries with stronger libel laws (like the UK) don't have nearly as bad a problem

Ever read the Daily Mail, the SUN and co? (Or for that matter the Guardian, for left-sided BS).

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#23

Post by coldtea »

darkpuma wrote: post #13
nsedlet wrote: post #10

This is probably an unpopular opinion, and I'd want to think this through more, but I've been feeling recently that libel laws in the U.S. ought to be stronger. We have a massive problem with propagandists (especially on the right, but also the left) using blatant lies to manipulate opinion. The net result is a huge amount of anger & distrust. The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to the…

If the UK's notion of libel were applied to the scenario of the article, Robert Frese would be required to prove that his statements were truthful, rather than the police/prosecution proving Robert knew he was lying. That's obscene. Think about how hard each of those would be to prove. To prove he knew he was lying would almost require that he admitted it in writing or was recorded admitting it. But for a man like Ro…

>If the UK's notion of libel were applied to the scenario of the article, Robert Frese would be required to prove that his statements were truthful, rather than the police/prosecution proving Robert knew he was lying. That's obscene.

Is it? If he can't prove his statements were true (eg. if he doesn't have hard facts baking him), then why was he making them?

That said, often those things (dirty police, dirty corporations, etc) are right there obvious to most, and you can't prove them because of course they're careful -- e.g. they might even admit it to your face, but never on record.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#24

Post by coldtea »

bovermyer wrote: post #9

Just because he was arrested for criminal libel doesn't mean he will be convicted of it. The article does a good job of presenting a high level overview of criminal libel: what it is, what the arguments around it are, and so forth. Read the whole thing.

>Just because he was arrested for criminal libel doesn't mean he will be convicted of it.

Doesn't matter. Can still lose money (e.g. by taking time off of his work) and can still be harassed (even after the case ends), and can still have his life made a living hell by casual police and friends activity.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#25

Post by coldtea »

reaperducer wrote: post #19
qbz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said an officer is corrupt and that the chief is covering it up. The NYT calls this "disparaging", but it clearly goes way beyond badmouthing.

Imagine a world where everyone who accused a public servant of being corrupt, or covering things up was arrested. Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season.

>Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season

Sounds like a better world!

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#26

Post by darkpuma »

coldtea wrote: post #23
darkpuma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the UK's notion of libel were applied to the scenario of the article, Robert Frese would be required to prove that his statements were truthful, rather than the police/prosecution proving Robert knew he was lying. That's obscene. Think about how hard each of those would be to prove. To prove he knew he was lying would almost require that he admitted it in writing or was recorded admitting it. But for a man like Ro…

> If the UK's notion of libel were applied to the scenario of the article, Robert Frese would be required to prove that his statements were truthful, rather than the police/prosecution proving Robert knew he was lying. That's obscene. Is it? If he can't prove his statements were true (eg. if he doesn't have hard facts baking him), then why was he making them? That said, often those things (dirty police, dirty corpora…

Yes, that's obscene. It should be legal for private citizens to call a cop dirty without first launching a huge FBI investigation into the police department to prove it. Often times those FBI investigations only take place because private citizens bring federal attention to the local situation by calling cops dirty loudly and often.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#27

Post by rockinghigh »

nsedlet wrote: post #10

This is probably an unpopular opinion, and I'd want to think this through more, but I've been feeling recently that libel laws in the U.S. ought to be stronger. We have a massive problem with propagandists (especially on the right, but also the left) using blatant lies to manipulate opinion. The net result is a huge amount of anger & distrust. The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to the…

Most lies on Fox News or spread in the UK before Brexit would not qualify as libel or defamation. Misleading numbers about immigration, border crossings or crimes committed by foreigners are not directed at one particular person and would not be considered defamation/libel.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#28

Post by cruella_deville »

coldtea wrote: post #23
darkpuma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the UK's notion of libel were applied to the scenario of the article, Robert Frese would be required to prove that his statements were truthful, rather than the police/prosecution proving Robert knew he was lying. That's obscene. Think about how hard each of those would be to prove. To prove he knew he was lying would almost require that he admitted it in writing or was recorded admitting it. But for a man like Ro…

> If the UK's notion of libel were applied to the scenario of the article, Robert Frese would be required to prove that his statements were truthful, rather than the police/prosecution proving Robert knew he was lying. That's obscene. Is it? If he can't prove his statements were true (eg. if he doesn't have hard facts baking him), then why was he making them? That said, often those things (dirty police, dirty corpora…

proof doesnt matter, they have immunity from prosecution, and its near impossible to prove they are acting beyond thier legal authority or as an unreasonable person. They should have consequences to fear when they screw up just like everybody else does.

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#29

Post by [deleted] »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #18
jackallis wrote: post #7

as a brown guy, i will never have the balls big enough to make comments like this.

As a white guy, I mourn that people of color feel that making comments like this requires courage. It shouldn't require courage at all, for anybody, regardless of color or race or religion or gender or anything . I mourn that people like you have to be more careful in interactions with police or other authorities. It just stinks.

[deleted]

Re: He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

#30

Post by darkpuma »

coldtea wrote: post #25
reaperducer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a world where everyone who accused a public servant of being corrupt, or covering things up was arrested. Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season.

> Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season Sounds like a better world!

Every critic of those politicians would be in jail too.
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