Live data from Hacker News

Thank u, next

words.steveklabnik.com

161–170 of 182 posts

Re: Thank u, next

#161
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe! I'm not sure I have the kind of skills needed to do such a thing.

Maybe setting up a Patreon account and posting what you did each week is sufficient. That seems to work for the youtubers, and it's more audacious to ask money for watching youtube videos than writing docs and promoting Rust ;-)

I have done this, and just for reference, my Patreon currently brings in $203/month. I am very grateful to my supporters, but making this scale doesn't look easy.

Re: Thank u, next

#162
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To borrow from the Harry Potter universe, early stage startups need Gryffindors and Ravenclaws, but then as the company grows more and more Hufflepuffs get hired, and sooner or later the company ends up on the radar of Slytherins, who are focused mostly on obtaining fame and renown, and who are more likely to have what muggles call "dark triad" personality traits. What's most fascinating about the Hogwarts metaphor i…

For what it's worth, I don't know if anyone here, me included, considers Mozilla a "status symbol" on the resume. It certainly is nowhere near FAANG in terms of inbound recruiter volume. People who want status symbols go to Google. (I chose Mozilla over large company offers a decade ago because the work seemed more interesting, knowing full well it was more of a gamble in terms of my career. I've never regretted the…

I obviously can't speak for anyone else on this, but I have actually given ex-Mozilla people a bit of a boost in the past when I've interviewed people because I view it as a) a semi-prestigious company, and b) a company filled with people who really like programming.

Re: Thank u, next

#163
post #5

Mozilla sounds like your average PHB-led corporation. This is also one of the reasons I'm skeptical about Rust, since Mozilla is the backbone of Rust development. They don't strike me as an organisation that can shepherd a programming language long term and with their market share taking a nose dive they're bound to get even more desperate and cut non-essential projects or make new data-sharing partnerships. Anyways,…

Mozilla doesn't really "shepherd" Rust development. We've constructed the Rust project so that Mozilla cannot control it; decisions are made via consensus, and Mozilla employees make up ~10% of the overall Rust team. There's never been some sort of mandate to do something specific with Rust from upon high, and I don't expect there to ever be. If they tried, it wouldn't work!

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I fully agree. If you quit a position where you get paid full time to work on Rust because of reasons having to do with your working relationship, maybe MoCo doesn't control the project, but it clearly has an important influence.

Re: Thank u, next

#164
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there companies (outside of Mozilla) that would hire (or at least pay) someone like that to keep working on Rust and its documentation? These people are too important to not pay enough. I know it's perceived to be the price you pay if you work for a foundation like Mozilla (or open source software), but it's not fair. I've seen a guy who worked full time on open source have a Patreon, which had a few big sponsors…

One company that values documentation is Microsoft. There are technologies like Web Assembly/Blazor that could use an evangelist. Web Assembly within the framework of .NET Core+VS Code could be worth pushing.

Microsoft's documentation is really bad, in my opinion. So maybe Microsoft would be a good choice for Steve after all ;)

Re: Thank u, next

#165
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there other benefits to the location besides perception? Definitely. Access to talent pool, networking opportunities, easy customer research, marketing, and so much more.

It really seems like a double gut-punch from my perspective. I was approached by a recruiter representing EFF when I graduated (state school in the midwest) and while 75K for a fresh grad seemed like reasonable compensation for a non-profit, when I viewed that in the context of both a cut for the recruiting body shop and the high cost of living in SF for both a company and individual that it was a farcical proposal.…

KC native here. I haven't been to SF, and don't ever plan to. I live 12 miles away from my work (to the East, thank goodness), and bought a home a few years ago in a very nice suburb for $160k. 3 bed, 2.5 bath, gigantic finished basement and 2 car garage. My mortgage is like $1.3k/month

For the same $1.3k in SF, I could get a deluxe cardboard box by the side of the road. No thank you. And KC is google fiber as well, so I'm getting great internet for $50/mo.

I really think more tech companies should try KC or Austin. The cost of living is much lower, so more of people's salaries becomes spending money.

Re: Thank u, next

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh. My peers are engineers, my job title was technical writer. Across the industry, writers make less than engineers do.

If you asked your engineer peers how they would feel if you were paid an equivalent salary, I am confident some of them would admit that they would not like it. Privately, I think most of them would definitely not like it but would probably refrain from publicly admitting as much. Which to me is the crux of the matter. If I was your manager at Mozilla and looking to maintain team cohesion and minimize talent loss, en…

I think your first paragraph is on the money, this is indeed how many engineers and engineering managers think. You seem to throw in your cards with that viewpoint in your second paragraph, though, and I think the logic there is circular. Engineers and engineering managers persistently devalue the skillset behind being an excellent technical writer, and the value that an excellent technical writer brings to a project, which in turn weakens the “bargaining foundations” of technical writers artificially. It’s been my experience as an engineer that this artificial devaluation is harmful to projects both directly and indirectly, because technical writers are inevitably aware of the fact that it’s happening. That technical writing maybe has a greater foundation in so-called “soft skills” doesn’t mean that it’s less valuable, and especially in cases like Rust where the documentation can very reasonably be considered part of the product, it’s a huge mistake to undervalue the work of someone like Steve Klabnick that way. In general, I can’t imagine being resentful of a technical writer earning as much or more than me as an engineer: a perfect gem of software engineering that no one uses is a failed product, and it’s very much because of the work of technical writers that good projects see widespread use.

Re: Thank u, next

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla doesn't really "shepherd" Rust development. We've constructed the Rust project so that Mozilla cannot control it; decisions are made via consensus, and Mozilla employees make up ~10% of the overall Rust team. There's never been some sort of mandate to do something specific with Rust from upon high, and I don't expect there to ever be. If they tried, it wouldn't work!

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I fully agree. If you quit a position where you get paid full time to work on Rust because of reasons having to do with your working relationship, maybe MoCo doesn't control the project, but it clearly has an important influence.

Ultimately, if you regard money as somehow inherently corrupting, you're never going to be satisfied unless nobody is getting paid to work on the project. Even a foundation has to get its funding from somewhere.

Re: Thank u, next

#168
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there other benefits to the location besides perception? Definitely. Access to talent pool, networking opportunities, easy customer research, marketing, and so much more.

It really seems like a double gut-punch from my perspective. I was approached by a recruiter representing EFF when I graduated (state school in the midwest) and while 75K for a fresh grad seemed like reasonable compensation for a non-profit, when I viewed that in the context of both a cut for the recruiting body shop and the high cost of living in SF for both a company and individual that it was a farcical proposal.…

> Would the fight for digital liberties really be _that_ encumbered by a location in Kansas City, Austin, Atlanta, or even a generic Valley office park?

Probably not, but it's hard to convince your entire company to up and move. SF is not perfect, and there are big problems with it, but there are also lots of nice things about it and it's a known quantity. Personally I do want to leave soon, but to where is a big question with no obvious answer.

Re: Thank u, next

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> culture sounds toxic Is this an indirect reference to Brendan Eich's sacking or is it even worse?

Brendan Eich was never sacked by Mozilla (the company or the foundation). That said, it was the strong backlash from the community that impelled him to quit.

Please do not speak for me.

Re: Thank u, next

#170
Wyldfire's comment got me thinking- you should go work for Microsoft. They value developer relationship immensely. And I hear they treat their employees well, not just monetarily.
Post reply on HN