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Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

news.gallup.com

221–230 of 267 posts

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#221
post #116

Age 15-29: 30% I don't really give a shit about 15 year olds and their perspective on the world considering they hardly live in it until about 10 years later. The biggest impacts on their lives are from their parents' circumstance or decision making.

People don't suddenly become politically aware at 18. Paying taxes and graduating high school doesn't grant you deep political insight. >The biggest impacts on their lives are from their parents' circumstance or decision making. While yes, their parents generally have the greatest direct control over their material conditions, the assumption that they then can't have any insights into political conditions that surrou…

I'd be willing to bet good money that the number of teenagers who actually read propositions dramatically increases at literally age 18, considering that's when you can vote.

So no, people do actually become politically aware, usually around 18 years of age or older. Until then, sentiment dominates.

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not? Drifting off-topic, but the short version is that "subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies" (meaning everything on the shelf at the pharmacy), validating schools, etc all comes down to recreating work that the govt does and then making sure that it's more cost-effective to provide good value than it is to be deceptive about providing good value. I suppose I should get a few degr…

> "subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies" (meaning everything on the shelf at the pharmacy), validating schools, etc all comes down to recreating work that the govt does That's kind of the point. If the government is doing a crappy job and you can get your money back, go take it to someone else who can do a better job. Maybe even your state or local government instead of the feds. > and…

This will be my last comment on this thread as you've repeatedly failed to keep it topical, but I'm loathe to stop commenting and let your points appear persuasive by default. (the trap of the internet)

The issue is not that I trust the government, it's that I trust companies less. Governments have done a lot of bad things, and have done a lot of deception, but ultimately I trust their model of accountability more than I do companies. I'm not against being persuaded...but I don't see a lot of (any?) real world examples of this free-market utopia you describe, nor signs that it would come about. Instead, whenever govt reduces regulation too far, companies form monopolies, perform deceptive trade practices, and break the fundamental concepts of capitalism. That govt can over-regulate does not mean that (1) it must, nor (2) that it is.

All of which is irrelevant (again) to this article, which is stating that people are unhappy with the results. They aren't demanding tax cuts, they want the results. The primary obstacle to results in recent decades has not been the govt being bad at it's job, but people demanding the govt stop doing these things and cutting their funding to do so, then complaining about the govt's inability to fix things. These are the same people demanding bigger military funding and focus on oil, so the govt seems to be doing a decent job of doing what it's asked...it's just not what I and many others are asking for.

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not? Drifting off-topic, but the short version is that "subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies" (meaning everything on the shelf at the pharmacy), validating schools, etc all comes down to recreating work that the govt does and then making sure that it's more cost-effective to provide good value than it is to be deceptive about providing good value. I suppose I should get a few degr…

> "subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies" (meaning everything on the shelf at the pharmacy), validating schools, etc all comes down to recreating work that the govt does That's kind of the point. If the government is doing a crappy job and you can get your money back, go take it to someone else who can do a better job. Maybe even your state or local government instead of the feds. > and…

The idea that we can just take our tax dollars elsewhere and get better outcomes for less money doesn't seem realistic to me. At worst, these essential services just fall apart because not enough people would be willing to spend their tax refund on them. At best, we'll end up with the same thing because corporations are greedy and there's not really a good reason to have competition in pharmaceutical oversight.

Do you really want to have to shop around for a service that tells you which drugs are safe? You can't pick the cheapest because they probably cut corners or took industry kickbacks, but are you throwing away money if you pick the most expensive one? Do you just pick the average-priced option and hope they are trustworthy?

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That number seems extremely suspect. If that were really true, it would bubble about culturally in all kinds of ways.

.... Have you not been paying attention? A lot of women are pissed .

Which is very different from nearly half the population wanting to permanently emigrate.

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.... Have you not been paying attention? A lot of women are pissed .

Which is very different from nearly half the population wanting to permanently emigrate.

Maybe they see the writing on the wall with the president, senate, and especially Supreme Court and don’t want to stick around to see when their human rights get rolled back?

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we were getting what we're getting now and paying half the taxes then everything would be fine This is the statement I disagree with. Me having a few thousand extra $ at the end of the year does not give the homeless homes, does not allow me to comparison shop for healthcare, does not tell me if the drug at the store is actually real, does not ensure the schools are safe and effective. And I can't buy those by m…

> And I can't buy those by myself for that extra cash. Why not? If you had thousands of dollars a year in extra cash, you could donate to homeless shelters, pay the higher healthcare premiums, subscribe to a service that would independently validate pharmacies, pay for good private schools or donate to scholarship funds, etc. More to the point, you wouldn't need to pay for them to the extent that they already exist.…

I believe inefficiency is a red herring. I want the government to collect taxes to fund these efforts for two reasons:

1) So that we can have consistent, reliable, and widely-available services. 2) So the financial cost of society is spread fairly across everyone.

These are not guarantees the free market provides, because the market doesn't care about outcomes. Giving people tax breaks and hoping they donate it to homeless shelters will probably not help all the homeless people in the country. Switching the FDA to an opt-in subscription service will not prevent unsafe drugs from reaching consumers.

Sure I'd prefer government to run be as efficient as possible, but the goal isn't efficiency, it's better outcomes.

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#227
post #74
post #16

Ultimately this indicates that people aren’t satisfied with the returns on taxation. I’m all for supporting a government that supports the people. From my perspective we don’t have this and haven’t had it for some time. Other developed nations have better infrastructure, better social support system, near free higher education, free at point of contact healthcare systems. What we get in the U.S. is the most advanced…

I agree that we don't get a good return on the taxes we pay. But, defense spending is about 1/6 of the federal budget at around 3% of GDP. For comparison medicare/medicaid combined is about 5% of GDP. Apparently France spends 4% of GDP on healthcare total, not just for old people. I think the biggest problem with our system is not necessarily that defense spending is so high, but that our healthcare system is so inef…

Your conclusion is correct, your numbers are not - the spending gap is much higher (which supports your point even better)

US spending is over 18%, almost double the cost in France. Even the oh-so-expensive Switzerland spends ~12% of its GDP on healthcare.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184968/us-health-expendi...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-spending/u-s-healt...

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#228
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. The FEIE limit is $100,800 USD, but you still MUST file a tax return every year, no matter what, and no matter where you reside. It is extremely expensive to file that return and you pretty much must retain an accountant who understands the tax laws of the US for non-residents and your resident country's tax laws. FEIE only covers situations in which you can prove non-residence, and only makes you whole…

If you are working in a high-tax country, like any of the European ones, aren't you paying so much tax to that country that your US tax liability is essentially zero? Due to credit for foreign income taxes paid, separate from FEIE? I.e. if an American moved to Netherlands and made 100k of which 40k went to Dutch taxes, wouldn't they effectively pay $0 in US because the credit for 40k paid to the foreign govt would wi…

Yes and no. It's actually really complicated. For instance, you can be taxed on earnings against foreign-owned assets, such as stocks, bonds, ETFs, futures, commodities, and ownership in investment real property, which is not excluded from taxation in FEIE. FEIE only affects income tax, not capital gains tax or other forms of taxation. It also does not exempt you from FICA (Medicare, Social Security, et al).

So you're working for a US tech company that issued you RSUs and options in the US market, and you also bought an apartment in your foreign country of residence, and you also happened to buy some ETFs once on the London Stock Exchange. Good luck with filing without an accountant or being audited :)

Also, have fun ever selling foreign property. Being subject to expatriated taxes means you are automatically ineligible for real estate capital gains exemption. Decide to move to a better apartment and sell your old one in a foreign country? Welp, now you owe capital gains on the sale with no exemptions allowed, even though the transaction had nothing to do with the US in any way. [2]

In addition, if you earned over the FEIE limitation, you'd be fully taxed in that bracket by the US AND by your resident country. Some EU member nations have special taxation rules especially for US expats (Germany for instance) thanks to a cozy relationship and a huge number of US foreign nationals living there (civilian employees of the US military, for instance). In general though, you'd be strictly double-taxed on income. You also get no credit against paying VAT, which is a significant tax in the EU.

Trust me, I am speaking from experience here, there is nothing at all simple about paying US taxes while living abroad or even filing an accurate return. You're also at higher audit risk. You basically /have/ to hire an expensive accountant (or be lucky enough that the US government supplies/augments one if you're a government employee).

Also if you own real property in the United States, you are automatically excluded from being eligible for FEIE. I owned my home in the US while I was abroad, which meant I was never entitled to FEIE unless I transferred the property into ownership of a trust (like a REIT) or sold it. If I moved it into a trust, I'd have to pay taxes off any gains made and those would not be excluded and do not have to be fully realized to be taxable in some scenarios.

Taxes are really really really complicated in general, and US taxes are bonkers stupid complicated. And then there's FATCA, so good luck even trying to get away not filing a return or dealing with this situation [1].

Basically, the short answer is if you are a US citizen and you move abroad, be ready to get shafted hard by the IRS and also pay extensively for the privilege of telling them how hard to shaft you.

[1]: https://www.usexpattaxhelp.com/us-american-expats-what-%20is... [2]: https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/taxes/selling-home-capital-g...

P.S.: Sorry about all the edits in a short amount of time. I kept finding more things I thought needed to be said. I'll leave this response alone now.

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#229
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are working in a high-tax country, like any of the European ones, aren't you paying so much tax to that country that your US tax liability is essentially zero? Due to credit for foreign income taxes paid, separate from FEIE? I.e. if an American moved to Netherlands and made 100k of which 40k went to Dutch taxes, wouldn't they effectively pay $0 in US because the credit for 40k paid to the foreign govt would wi…

Yes and no. It's actually really complicated. For instance, you can be taxed on earnings against foreign-owned assets, such as stocks, bonds, ETFs, futures, commodities, and ownership in investment real property, which is not excluded from taxation in FEIE. FEIE only affects income tax, not capital gains tax or other forms of taxation. It also does not exempt you from FICA (Medicare, Social Security, et al). So you'r…

Thanks for the response.

I was reading this in the interim: https://tax.kpmg.us/content/dam/tax/en/pdfs/2019/2019-us-tax...

The answer to my question appears to be on the bottom of page 8, which paraphrased is that FEIE and Foreign Income Tax Credit are exclusive, so high income earners may wish to take the latter rather than the former (and the latter is what prevents double-taxation).

Re: Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S

#230
post #16

Ultimately this indicates that people aren’t satisfied with the returns on taxation. I’m all for supporting a government that supports the people. From my perspective we don’t have this and haven’t had it for some time. Other developed nations have better infrastructure, better social support system, near free higher education, free at point of contact healthcare systems. What we get in the U.S. is the most advanced…

Consider that most, if not all, of these developed nations can afford the services you listed because America has vowed to protect them with it's military power. We spend on military force so they don't have to. The money they save is used for the services you listed. We could renegotiate, which is what President Trump is doing, yet Id guess Americans want to have the worlds largest and most advanced military. "He wi…

We spend on military to protect our economic and imperial interests abroad, and no other reason.
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