Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets • Hacker News Board

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#251

Post by wtracy » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

deathanatos wrote: post #235

wtracy wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? Nvidia used to be the only discrete GPU manufacturer that had Linux support worth mentioning. I know that AMD/ATi has made a lot of progress, but is Nvidia really the worst at this point?

I just went through the process of getting NVIDIA drivers working on my brother's dual-boot Ubuntu. Here's the issues we hit: 1. You don't don't get drivers out of the box. The NVIDIA driver is non-free, so Ubuntu's (and other Linux distros') hands are tied here: they're not permitted to distribute it. Getting it is relatively easy (check a box, install a package), but you need to know that you need it, and then figu…

Last time I checked, both AMD and Nvidia expect you to download manufacturer drivers for Windows. I'm willing to jump through similar hoops for Linux. (Incidentally, when someone complains about how hard it is to install Linux, that person has usually never tried installing Windows without using the OEM disc from the manufacturer. Take that away, and Windows becomes a lot harder.)

Linux support for Optimus and friends is abysmal, I agree. When I say good things about Nvidia's Linux support, I am referring to their discrete desktop and workstation cards.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#252

Post by ken » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

mrspeaker wrote: post #15

This is just an out-of-context tweet (well, the context is there - it's a reply to another tweet, which is out of context)... so perhaps it was just auto-crash reports, but I wonder if you get more tickets from Linux users, because Linux users are more likely to file tickets? When something crashes on my partner's computer she yells at it and restarts it. When something crashes on my computer I spend an hour trying t…

Similarly, if I hear from all my friends that a program crashes a lot on Linux, I'm much less likely to want to download it in the first place.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#253

Post by backpropaganda » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #184

tpush wrote: post #10

The situation seems to be similar for Mac: https://twitter.com/bgolus/status/1080327518983315457 > Yeah, I didn't want to touch on Mac support in the original post, but Mac support also cost way more than it made in sales.

Innumerate person here, does that mean that supporting Mac is a net loss for a business?

For this particular business. I don't think he's representative. Using tools like Unity makes it much easier to deploy on Mac and Linux.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#254

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

FigBug wrote: post #62

I work for a small company that produces a DAW and VST plugins. Supporting Linux is a huge amount of work compared to Windows and Mac. The main issue is that 'Linux' is not a thing you can support. You have to pick the distros you want to support, and then once you've picked a distro, what versions you want to support. And you need to use the C++ version that ships with that distro, so if you want to support old vers…

[deleted]

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#255

Post by michaelmrose » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:11 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #128

rkido wrote: post #53

Linux is the perpetual scapegoat. They selected a middleware, Coherent UI, that didn't work properly on anything but Windows. They also didn't make proper use of the Steam runtime, a mistake that continues to cause issues. Most games don't make these mistakes, so this isn't really representative of the larger state of Linux gaming. It's worth pointing out that the devs did make a legitimately good attempt at making L…

Technically speaking I'm sure you're right. In practice it doesn't really matter though, if they did it that way it's either because it was easier or because that's the way they were used to doing it. The fact that "technically" it's not Linux's fault doesn't really matter, unless you're more interested in the moral concept of guilt rather that the practicalities of making a Linux port of a game. Why should they chan…

The moral concept of guilt is uninteresting here.

Developing for any platform requires a degree of competence and research. The fact that lots of engines are themselves cross platform doesn't in fact mean that linux support is a box you can tick with no further effort it means that it is a lot less effort.

I think the take away is that their life sucked because they were ill prepared and not just ill prepared to develop for Linux by all accounts. We could do well to maintain comprehensive and evolving info on the current best practices of developing on this platform and importantly pro mote them so as many as possible are educated.

Incidentally honestly I don't think gaming on linux sucks. There are an absolute ton of games available. I tend to buy humble bundles and steam sales and I presently have about 10 I haven't even played yet. Maybe I would feel differently if games were the primary use of my computer. I don't need every possible game to be ported to gave a good gaming experience on Linux. I just need there to be more games than I can possibly play.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#256

Post by kurtisc » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #242

kurtisc wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that they can't distinguish it but there was no visible demand for an iPhone before the iPhone.

Only if we forget about the work done by Symbian, Psion, Microsoft, Compaq, Dell in portable Touch devices.

How did the demand work out for Symbian, Psion, and Microsoft phones?

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#257

Post by pantalaimon » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

taway_1212 wrote: post #219

WAthrowaway wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>daily struggle that is desktop Linux lol what year is this? 1999? but I agree with the rest of your points

Tried installing Linux on MBP last month. Ran away screaming after 30+ hours of dealing with drivers issues. I do this every couple of years, hoping that finally THIS time I can get off Windows. Next attempt will be circa about 2021 probably.

Running Linux on new hardware is usually a bad idea, due to the nature of the process you have to expect at least a year before divers for new hardware have settled into distributions.

Then things should be pretty sweet for quite a while. Unless your hardware is really poplar, things will bitrot away eventually, but expect a 5-10 year sweet spot where everything should just work out of the box.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#258

Post by michaelmrose » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

bartread wrote: post #239

ajvs wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not seen Steam Play these last few months? Because of Proton the majority of the top 250 highest rated games now run fine on Linux. I've been playing Skyrim, Witcher 3, Dark Souls 3, Castle Crashers, Overwatch, Heroes of the Storm, etc all of which are Windows-only but now WINE is so good it runs like it's native. Linux gaming doesn't suck anymore and it's coming to eat Windows lunch. Check out ProtonDB to s…

> Have you not seen Steam Play these last few months? Because of Proton the majority of the top 250 highest rated games now run fine on Linux. Whilst this is cool I think it may also, sadly, be commercially irrelevant. Why bother worrying about Linux compatibility when only a tiny (i.e., somewhere between 0% and 1%) number of players/purchasers will run your game on Linux?

Perhaps because you will earn way way more money by making your game cross platform given the 3 consoles and 3 pc platforms that exist and once you have committed to such linux support might only take 1% of your effort.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#259

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

rkido wrote: post #53

Linux is the perpetual scapegoat. They selected a middleware, Coherent UI, that didn't work properly on anything but Windows. They also didn't make proper use of the Steam runtime, a mistake that continues to cause issues. Most games don't make these mistakes, so this isn't really representative of the larger state of Linux gaming. It's worth pointing out that the devs did make a legitimately good attempt at making L…

Most games don't make these mistakes...it seems they weren't aware of some other best practices.

I see this time and time again. Game developer runs into one of the difficult subjects in computer science/programming. Dismisses the difficulty. Gets themselves into trouble. Blames the library/product/platform.

The last time I was at a game jam, I found myself explaining generational garbage collection to a game dev. He then proceeded to "solve" all of his problems by writing a 5 minute hack to ensure all of his objects would be collected as quickly as possible. Which didn't work, because the lifespan of his objects is dependent on gameplay, so he can't ensure all of his objects will die in Eden. I kept trying to explain that he should actually hold onto his objects (especially bullets in his bullet hell game) and recycle them as much as possible, so that he would reduce memory pressure and have those objects promoted to old space, so they are looked at less often.

I see this sort of thing time and time again.

Re: Game dev: Linux users were only 0.1% of sales but 20% of crashes and tickets

#260

Post by mfoy_ » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

Well if the game crashes a lot on Linux then those players would likely switch to an alternative platform. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where games don't run well on Linux and game developers don't see Linux gamers as a large demographic.

If most games ran smoothly on Linux, you can expect the % of Linux sales to rise... no?