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Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

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Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#61

Post by 9214 »

wiremine wrote: post #56
9214 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP can always correct me if I'm wrong in my defensiveness.

I'm not the OP (and not associated with red an anyway, other than being a fan of REBOL), and I agree the wording deserved to be called out. "cult" and "Czech wizardry" aren't exactly positive framing words. Hopefully this doesn't spiral into a discussion about PC comments, because red looks to be cool and deserves a good technical discussion; but I don't think 9214 was off base calling out the comment.

I admit that I can get off the base when it comes to critique from outsiders uninvolved in the project, and appreciate cross-checks from others.

Besides, a warning shot won't hurt anyone.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#62

Post by 9214 »

vanderZwan wrote: post #55
9214 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that Rebol and Red are extremely good chameleons - they hide all their power behind the approachable facade, and make a false impression of "oh it's just X, nothing serious". I saw a fair share of people who, based on that first impression, dismiss Red as a quirky alternative to Python, or a GUI-building kit, or a pretentious academical toy, you name it. But that doesn't mean that these languages child-sa…

Ah, so we were more or less on the same page from the beginning. BTW, is there a child-safe dialect for Red? How easy or hard would it be to create an environment like Processing or p5.js, without the foot-shooting risks? https://processing.org/ http://p5js.org/

That kinda a broad question.

Easy - you can create a live-coding IDE in 20 lines or so, Draw and View a pretty capable for interactive Processing-like demos, bottlenecks can be rewritten in R/S.

Hard - hit the academical papers and define what can be considered a "child-safe programming environment". Then implement a separate toolchain for that.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#63

Post by 9214 »

dmitriid wrote: post #59
hjek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > If anything, it sounds too easy, making me think "what's the catch? > This is rude and uncalled for. I think she/he raise a fair point about how the Red language is advertised, and it's actually a rather friendly to assume that it's due to language barrier. Many posts about Red/Rebol are unequivocal praise with very few details or any acknowledgements of short-comings or limitations of the languages. Just to dig…

One of the reasons is that the Red community is very small and entrenched. They know everything that comes out of the language, and to them everything is easy and understandable. They will fight you to the death if you even try to say that "english-like syntax with no parantheses" is the opposite of readable or understandable when you don't know the system. Go into any of Red's source files and you will end up lookin…

I don't recall anyone fighting to the death over someones syntactic preferences. Code written by experienced users (and Red codebase in particular) is a hard nut to crack, that's true.

Regarding development: I'd appreciate if you elaborate over your critique. Concrete suggestions on how development and testing processes can be improved are always welcomed.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#64

Post by 9214 »

vanderZwan wrote: post #57
wiremine wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OP (and not associated with red an anyway, other than being a fan of REBOL), and I agree the wording deserved to be called out. "cult" and "Czech wizardry" aren't exactly positive framing words. Hopefully this doesn't spiral into a discussion about PC comments, because red looks to be cool and deserves a good technical discussion; but I don't think 9214 was off base calling out the comment.

> "Czech wizardry" It could be a compliment of course, like "wow, this stuff is amazing tech wizardry that should be much more appreciated, and probably would be if not for the language barrier!" Let's just agree that natural languages are too fuzzy and ambiguous and assume good faith.

Frankly, I don't get what Czech has to do with it and why it was mentioned.

Major part of old-timers (from Rebol era) in our community are indeed Czech people, but Red development was initiated in France, moved to China, and now bridges people across the whole Europe.

Putting such emphasis on nationality without any clear reason IMO looks strange and raises my eyebrow, to say the least.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#65

Post by vanderZwan »

9214 wrote: post #62
vanderZwan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so we were more or less on the same page from the beginning. BTW, is there a child-safe dialect for Red? How easy or hard would it be to create an environment like Processing or p5.js, without the foot-shooting risks? https://processing.org/ http://p5js.org/

That kinda a broad question. Easy - you can create a live-coding IDE in 20 lines or so, Draw and View a pretty capable for interactive Processing-like demos, bottlenecks can be rewritten in R/S. Hard - hit the academical papers and define what can be considered a "child-safe programming environment". Then implement a separate toolchain for that.

I was thinking more along the lines of

[Somewhere between Easy and Hard?] - make the dialect operate in a safe sandbox that can't destroy your computer

... plus optionally convenience functions fitting for the creative problem domain like how Processing removes a lot of Java boilerplate, and p5 does similar things for using the various JS APIs. One can just look at the APIs of Processing, p5 and OpenFrameworks to get an idea of what works there, though.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#66

Post by _pmf_ »

9214 wrote: post #48
sevensor wrote: post #46

I still don't know what to make of this language. If anything, it sounds too easy, making me think "what's the catch?" Is this a small programming cult or is it Czech wizardry obscured by a language barrier? Are there no highly visible Red projects because of shortcomings in the language and its community, or because the language is so potent, its users so empowered, that big libraries aren't necessary?

I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. Regardless of gender and nationality of community members, and despite the fact that Red is an alpha software, the following projects were created, which may qualify as highly visible: * neural networks [1] * computer vision framework [2] * dataflow engine [3] * ports of (cross-platform) GUI widgets [4] *…

I honestly think the comment was not intended to be rude.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#67

Post by 9214 »

vanderZwan wrote: post #65
9214 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That kinda a broad question. Easy - you can create a live-coding IDE in 20 lines or so, Draw and View a pretty capable for interactive Processing-like demos, bottlenecks can be rewritten in R/S. Hard - hit the academical papers and define what can be considered a "child-safe programming environment". Then implement a separate toolchain for that.

I was thinking more along the lines of [Somewhere between Easy and Hard?] - make the dialect operate in a safe sandbox that can't destroy your computer ... plus optionally convenience functions fitting for the creative problem domain like how Processing removes a lot of Java boilerplate, and p5 does similar things for using the various JS APIs. One can just look at the APIs of Processing, p5 and OpenFrameworks to get…

Safe sandbox: Rebol had Protect and Secure dialects [1, 2], which are planned to be implemented in Red. Language is very dynamic though, so there's a certain limit on what kind of safety can be enforced at runtime.

Creative problem domain: that's what Red is all about in my point of view - slapping domain-specific languages one on top of another to pin down the exact problem space. Draw for 2d vector drawing, View for GUIs, Parse for, well, parsing and metaprogramming, et cetera. The crux is usage of same data format and common notation at every abstraction layer, be it low-level programming or high-level scripting.

I don't think that Red can handle large-scale projects the way language workbenches do (yet), but it can be used for moderately small embedded DSLs.

Does that answer your question?

[1]: http://www.rebol.com/docs/words/wsecure.html

[2]: http://www.rebol.com/docs/words/wprotect-system.html

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#68

Post by hjek »

9214 wrote: post #60
hjek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > If anything, it sounds too easy, making me think "what's the catch? > This is rude and uncalled for. I think she/he raise a fair point about how the Red language is advertised, and it's actually a rather friendly to assume that it's due to language barrier. Many posts about Red/Rebol are unequivocal praise with very few details or any acknowledgements of short-comings or limitations of the languages. Just to dig…

Articles you linked are fairly old, unofficial (that is, don't represent opinions of Red designers and developers) and are written by more-or-less experienced Rebol users. That is, it's hard to talk objectively when you have a tunnel vision accumulated over time. These languages are great, and deserves all the praise they get. As for shortcomings and limitations, here I can speak only form my experience. If you want…

Thanks for responding politely to my somewhat accusatory comment.

It sounds like Red is driven by a small but very dedicated community, and the way it's both designed and promoted makes me think of TempleOS. Terry Davis' constant eulogies about how his own eccentric OS compares with Linux were obviously delusional (for a start, TempleOS doesn't do networking at all). Similarly comparing Red to Clojure when Red doesn't run on 64-bit machines is also misguided.

However, taken on its own terms TempleOS is an amazing piece of art, and I'm also sure that Red does something new and interesting. Perhaps that style of "PR bait" is just how you roll, but I am certainly glad you took your time to write a more down-to-earth description of the project. Reading that makes it easier for me to appreciate Red as more of an esoteric language that is of great use within its community.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#69

Post by 9214 »

DSingularity wrote: post #58
9214 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP can always correct me if I'm wrong in my defensiveness.

Okay, but just an FYI that was probably a complement. Wizardry and magic has positive vibes in American culture. I can see how that might not be the case in others.

"Wizardry" surrounded by "cult", "no highly visible projects" and "shortcomings", followed by unbacked focus on a particular national group reads more like "quackery" to me.

I get that meaning might be lost in translation, but also think that it's fair to assume the worst, esp. on an Internet forum.

Re: Red Programming Language: Plans for 2019

#70

Post by b_tterc_p »

9214 wrote: post #48
sevensor wrote: post #46

I still don't know what to make of this language. If anything, it sounds too easy, making me think "what's the catch?" Is this a small programming cult or is it Czech wizardry obscured by a language barrier? Are there no highly visible Red projects because of shortcomings in the language and its community, or because the language is so potent, its users so empowered, that big libraries aren't necessary?

I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. Regardless of gender and nationality of community members, and despite the fact that Red is an alpha software, the following projects were created, which may qualify as highly visible: * neural networks [1] * computer vision framework [2] * dataflow engine [3] * ports of (cross-platform) GUI widgets [4] *…

It’s not the end of the world if there are no highly visible projects. You’ve listed 6 things, but at a glance I don’t think any of them are highly visible.

Unless... there was a language barrier which obscured the meaning of “highly visible” which would be pretty funny in an ironic way.

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