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Tree Style Tabs

addons.mozilla.org

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Re: Tree Style Tabs

#71

I don’t understand how people browse the web without this extension. That’s the number one reason chrome is not usable for power users. I’m also wondering why this is not natively supported by both firefox and chrome.

I don't know how people live with the mental burden and clutter of dozens of tabs of things they'll (if they were honest with themselves) never get around to reading. It's like watching one of those TV shows about hoarding, where people live in a rabbit warren of junk they claim they'll use one day.

This is true and always alarming to see on someone's monitor but TST makes browsing better even if you don't have hundreds of tabs.

Whenever I'm researching or buying something, having tabs ordered in the parent/child tree makes finding things and going back to listings or indexes much easier and the general experience much more pleasant.

I heard a theory somewhere that the reason people use their smartphones for everything nowadays is because they never used the potential of their laptops/desktops and don't see much difference in usability. Things like TST show you how much more efficient you can be on a real computer.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#72
post #54

I don’t understand how people browse the web without this extension. That’s the number one reason chrome is not usable for power users. I’m also wondering why this is not natively supported by both firefox and chrome.

I don’t understand how people browse the web without this extension Using tab groups ('Panorama View' or 'Tab Stash' extensions etc) instead, for instance? I do like to add some organization to tabs, order by topic etc, but I personally never really saw value (yet perhaps, we'll see) in having a tree for that, 1 level seems sufficient for me. And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of TST users actuallt use it with just…

TST is mainly about having vertical tabs. Grouping and nesting them can be useful.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#74
post #68
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and I don't understand how people have more than about 10 tabs and stay sane. Do you people like... not use bookmarks at all? Heck, most of the sites I visit on anything like a regular basis I only need to type in the first letter or two and they auto-complete.

Bookmarks are for things I intend to open regularly. Tabs are for things I opened, decided it's interesting enough not to close, but not so interesting that I need to read it immediately. I have 500 tabs open on my iPhone. It is sort of like a queue of content that I can read when I have excessive free time.

Since you're at 500 items in your queue, something about your workflow is obviously broken.

Either you spend too much time looking for new things to add to the queue, too little time processing the queue, both of the above, or you cast too wide a net for what you might possibly read one day.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#75
post #68
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and I don't understand how people have more than about 10 tabs and stay sane. Do you people like... not use bookmarks at all? Heck, most of the sites I visit on anything like a regular basis I only need to type in the first letter or two and they auto-complete.

Bookmarks are for things I intend to open regularly. Tabs are for things I opened, decided it's interesting enough not to close, but not so interesting that I need to read it immediately. I have 500 tabs open on my iPhone. It is sort of like a queue of content that I can read when I have excessive free time.

If you did read them when you had excessive free time, you wouldn't have 500 tabs open. It sounds like your evaluation function is too optimistic.

I'd like to write an extension that killed your old tabs after a while. I already have an idea to do that with a todo list app that automatically gets rid of your old items.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#76
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's part of their new philosophy not to make anything configurable or anything "advanced" easy, unless you're jumping through some hoops. I still can't get over the fact that they removed the ability to view individual cookies and their values from the browser.

> they removed the ability to view individual cookies and their values from the browser Moved, not removed. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Storage_Inspe...

If it is only available in the Developer Toolbox then it has been removed as far as end users are concerned.

End users are not supposed to be poking around in developer tools.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#77

I always feel this should be included in Firefox default settings. Vertical space is an asset on modern monitors especially on laptop, this extension is the reason Firefox is the default browser on my machines

That's how I implemented tabbed windows in 1988 for the NeWS window system and UniPress Emacs (aka Gosling Emacs aka Evil Software Hoarder Emacs), which supported multiple windows on NeWS and X11 long before Gnu Emacs did.

That seemed to me like the most obvious way to do it at the time, since tabs along the top of bottom edges were extremely wasteful of screen space. (That was on a big hires Sun workstation screen, not a tiny little lores Mac display, so you could open a lot more windows, especially with Emacs.)

It makes them more like a vertical linear menu of opened windows, so you can real all their titles, fit many of them on the screen at once, and you instantly access any one and can pop up pie menus on the tabs to perform window management commands even if the windows themselves are not visible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_(GUI)#/media/File:HyperTIE...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_(GUI)

http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/trs/90-02/90-02-published.pdf

>Since storyboards are text files, they can be created and edited in any text editor as well as be manipulated by UNIX facilities (spelling checkers, sort, grep, etc...). On our SUN version Unipress Emacs provides a multiple windows, menus and programming environment to author a database. Graphics tools are launched from Emacs to create or edit the graphic components and target tools are available to mark the shape of each selectable graphic element. The authoring tool checks the links and verifies the syntax of the article markup. It also allows the author to preview the database by easily following links from Emacs buffer to buffer. Author and browser can also be run concurrently for final editing. [...]

>The more recent NeWS version of Hyperties on the SUN workstation uses two large windows that partition the screen vertically. Each window can have links and users can decide whether to put the destination article on top of the current window or on the other window. The pie menus made it rapid and easy to permit such a selection. When users click on a selectable target a pie menu appears (Figure 1) and allows users to specify in which window the destination article should be displayed (practically users merely click then move the mouse in direction of the desire window) . This strategy is easy to explain to visitors and satisfying to use. An early pilot test with four subjects was run, but the appeal of this strategy is very strong and we have not conducted more rigorous usability tests.

Using pie menus gesturally with "mouse-ahead display pre-emption" was a lot like of "swiping" on an iPad. And window managers tend to have directional commands: open on left or right side, resize from bottom right corner, move to top or bottom layer, etc, which correspond nicely to pie menu directions, so they're obvious, easy to learn, remember, and use without looking or waiting.

>In the author tool, we employ a more elaborate window strategy to manage the 15-25 articles that an author may want to keep close at hand. We assume that authors on the SUN/Hyperties will be quite knowledgeable in UNIX and Emacs and therefore would be eager to have a richer set of window management features, even if the perceptual, cognitive, and motor load were greater. Tab windows have their title bars extending to the right of the window, instead of at the top. When even 15 or 20 windows are open, the tabs may still all be visible for reference or selection, even thought the contents of the windows are obscured. This is a convenient strategy for many authoring tasks, and it may be effective in other applications as well.

I regularly used Emacs with tab windows and pie menus for software development and hypermedia authoring, and found them useful enough that I thought all NeWS applications should have them. So I implemented them as a globally shared extension to the NeWS window manager, independent of Emacs, so all NeWS applications got tabbed windows with pie menus. (NeWS was a lot like Smalltalk in that you could dynamically customize and extend the entire system like that.)

My later versions of tabbed windows with pie menus for NeWS in 1990 let you drag the tab around to any position along any edge you wanted. And they had pie menus designed to make window management quick and easy and very gestural, supporting "mouse ahead display pre-emption" and previewing and highlighting in the overlay plane (which was much faster to draw interactively than moving and resizing the live windows themselves).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMcmQk-q0k4

I iterated on the idea of tabbed windows and made several different versions over the lifetime of NeWS for its various GUI toolkits (Lite, NDE, TNT):

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/emacs/emacs.ps

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/tabwin.ps

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/old-xnews-tab.ps

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/tabframe-1.ps

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/tab-3.0.2.ps

    % Pie menus and tab windows and NOT patented or restricted, and the
    % interface and algorithms may be freely copied and improved upon. 
At Sun, we even made an X11 ICCCM window manager that wrapped tabbed window with pie menus around nasty old rectangular X-Windows:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15327339

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/owm.ps.txt

Tabs aren't only for top level windows or frames. You can also attach tabs to any side of nested windows, so you can drag them around anywhere freely, then stick them on a "stack" to constrain their movement, so you can drag them up and down to rearrange their order on the stack, and pop them off the stack by dragging them far enough away. The tabs can have pie menus with a standard set of window management commands, as well as a submenu item for content-specific commands, so they're easy to learn (because of their common layout) and also possible to customize (because of their type specific submenu).

https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-shape-of-psiber-space-oct...

>There is a text window onto a NeWS process, a PostScript interpreter with which you can interact (as with an "executive"). PostScript is a stack based language, so the window has a spike sticking up out of it, representing the process's operand stack. Objects on the process's stack are displayed in windows with their tabs pinned on the spike. (See figure 1) You can feed PostScript expressions to the interpreter by typing them with the keyboard, or pointing and clicking at them with the mouse, and the stack display will be dynamically updated to show the results.

>Objects on the PSIBER Space Deck appear in overlapping windows, with labeled tabs sticking out of them. Each object has a label, denoting its type and value, i.e. "integer 42". Each window tab shows the type of the object directly contained in the window. Objects nested within other objects have their type displayed to the left of their value. The labels of executable objects are displayed in italics. [...]

>Tab Windows: The objects on the deck are displayed in windows with labeled tabs sticking out of them, showing the data type of the object. You can move an object around by grabbing its tab with the mouse and dragging it. You can perform direct stack manipulation, pushing it onto stack by dragging its tab onto the spike, and changing its place on the stack by dragging it up and down the spike. It implements a mutant form of “Snap-dragging”, that constrains non-vertical movement when an object is snapped onto the stack, but allows you to pop it off by pulling it far enough away or lifting it off the top. [Bier, Snap-dragging] The menu that pops up over the tab lets you do things to the whole window, like changing view characteristics, moving the tab around, repainting or recomputing the layout, and printing the view.

Here's some more stuff I wrote about tabbed windows in HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16876520

>Unfortunately most of today's "cargo cult" imitative user interface designs have all "standardized" on the idea that the menu bars all belong at the top of the screen and nowhere else, menus items should layout vertically downward and no other directions, tabs should be rigidly attacked to the top edge and no other edge, and the user can't move them around. But there's no reason it has to be that way.

Now Firefox and Chrome still need decent built-in universally supported and user customizable pie menus, but unfortunately the popup window extension API is inadequate to support them, because there's no way to make them pop up centered on the cursor, or control the popup window shape and transparency. Unfortunately they were only thinking of drop-down linear menus when they designed the API. (Stop thinking inside that damn rectangular box, people!)

But I remain hopeful that somebody will eventually rediscover pie menus in combination with tabbed window for the web browser, and implement them properly (not constrained to pop up inside the browser window and be clipped by the window frame, and not just one gimmicky hard coded menu that user's can't change and developers can't use in their own applications). But the poorly designed browser extension APIs still have a hell of a lot of catching up to do with what it was trivial to do in NeWS for all windows 30 years ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8041232

>These things used to rub me the wrong way in the 90's, but I've learned to take it in stride. I think it's great that people are rediscovering and trying out old ideas in new systems, and perhaps the understandable belief that something's never been done before isn't so bad, if it motivates them to keep trying out different ideas in new contexts, and leads to even more great stuff that's never been done before, or even just re-implementations of old ideas that aren't as ugly as they used to be the first time around.

>So many "modern" user interfaces are such cargo cult carbon copies of each other (like tabs along just the top edge, or that way "flat" is such a big fad these days), that it's easy to get the impression that anything slightly different is actually original.

>Back in the day, we had no choice but to draw "flat" user interfaces, because all we had was black and white, and moving the cursor across the screen was uphill both ways!

Here's an old todo list from 1987 with some other crazy ideas I (fortunately or not) never got around to implementing in NeWS. The "stack of cards with indexing tabs" would be a generic widget that let you easily flip through and manage an editable stack of things using tabs with pie menus:

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/news.todo.txt

What I was getting at was an extensible generalization of tabs, kind of like Scratch's tools that appear around the selected object: customizable widgets that stick out from the edges of rectangular windows, that could be various shapes (like ears or antennae) and do various things (screen snapshot, scrolling, navigation, window management, application commands, etc).

A window could have one main window management title tab (and possibly others) that were always visible, and when it was activated, other auxiliary tabs of various types could open up in the last place you left them. Some could represent iconified sub-windows, like tool pallets or nested sub-windows that you could open up recursively, like an outliner.

You could attach many different kinds of tabs to the edge of a window, move them around, hide and reveal them, and open their property sheets and help screens, etc. And you could plug in new kinds like browser extensions, or interactively script your own and copy and paste them around like a HyperCard window manager. That's how the web browser and window manager should work together seamlessly.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they removed the ability to view individual cookies and their values from the browser Moved, not removed. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Storage_Inspe...

If it is only available in the Developer Toolbox then it has been removed as far as end users are concerned. End users are not supposed to be poking around in developer tools.

I don't know what sort of "end user" you expect to be poking around in cookie contents. The developer tools storage inspector always provided a much better user interface for doing so, and also exposes localStorage and IndexedDB data. I don't see why anybody interested in this sort of thing would have used the previous interface anyway.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#79
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tomato/tomato. I don’t understand how people browse the web with more than 4 or 5 tabs open at the same time.

You never have more than 5 tabs open at the same time? You’re probably the minority and you probably have learned to do that because the tabs on top put these constraints on you. You would likely browse the web very differently if you had TST. Give it a try.

That's a habit. I've been using TST for some time and this "no useless tabs" policy in my brain will not seem to change.

Re: Tree Style Tabs

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also work in this way. I use tabs as my “working memory” for whatever my current project is. Having fewer tabs helps keep me on track working on a single topic. When I’m done with that task, it helps me transition by having closed all the tabs. When I want to save pages in the long term, I use bookmarks.

It's odd that so many people confuse the roles of tabs and bookmarks. Perhaps it's a sign that the bookmark UX isn't good (or prevalent) enough. I generally have four pinned tabs open for email, Slack and Trello, plus another five related to what I'm working on.

People does not confuse roles.

It's just that:

1) What goes to bookmarks rarely goes out.

2) usually I and many other people have a few dozens at least of 'related to what I'm working on'. Like a few documentation pages for this, a few documentation pages for that, ten SO pages, ten blog articles on the same topic linked from SO etc. Plus some tabs unrelated to work, but the ones you absolutetly want to visit later and finish reading or something and don't have the time to put them into something like Things or Bear.

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