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Is there hope for IPv6?

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Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#291

Post by protomyth »

gerdesj wrote: post #225
4bpp wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More issues with IPv6 that are relevant for me as a techie: - Memorising an IPv4 address is about as easy as memorising a phone number, which is to say, fairly easy. I remember the iPv4 addresses of both my rental servers, every device on my home LAN, a bunch of public DNS servers if things go wrong, ...; there's no way I'm going to be able to do that for IPv6. - At least last time I tested it (more than 10 years ago…

I'm a techie too but I think: - If you go around memorising addresses then you are doing IT wrong in general. So many things depend on DNS (not just A records) that punching in IPs by default is a bad habit. Browsers will keep on enforcing SSL/TLS more and more until the point where typing in an IP address into the URL bar will be as painful as using the web GUI for say an elderly HP switch is right now. - In general…

> If you go around memorising addresses then you are doing IT wrong in general. So many things depend on DNS (not just A records) that punching in IPs by default is a bad habit.

If you are debugging network connectivity, then I have a tough time believing it’s possible without typing in a few network addresses.

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#292

Post by Wowfunhappy »

syncsynchalt wrote: post #279
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NAT also makes it difficult to run any kind of server at home (PCP support varies) or use any kind of p2p protocol. I care about this greatly, but I'm not clear that ISP's do. On the contrary, my ISP's TOS states that I'm technically not allowed to run my own server on my home internet plan.

P2P isn't just file sharing and home servers, for example the popular PS4/Xbox/PC game "Destiny" is all serverless P2P instances. I can't imagine an ISP banning you from playing PS4 games.

I recall reading that you could make P2P connections work behind a NAT by having an external server route the connections initially. Is this not true, or does it only work in some circumstances?

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#293

Post by pseudalopex »

4bpp wrote: post #269
gerdesj wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the things I do with memorised addresses have nothing to do with the browser or HTTP. (Mind you, though, the moment a browser won't let me access a bare IP, I'm switching away from that browser.) Me too. Wireshark, nmap and co are in regular use in my job. All browsers are playing nanny, more and more apart from the likes of Links (which I also use quite often). A lack of https is already flagged and I suspec…

Well, my assumption was always that in a scenario such as: ISP makes me share my public-facing IP with 15 randos -> I get on a torrent for Sony Corporate Secrets [full pack] [2018].zip -> Sony's legal department connects a honeypot and harvests all IPs it sees on it and sends out subpoenae to identify everyone who is in a friendly jurisdiction, the circumstance that I'm NATted by my provider will actually do nontrivi…

Your ISP would usually have port mapping logs.

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#294

Post by burtonator »

phicoh wrote: post #116
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #15

I hope (but am skeptical) that folks look at the overall failure of ipv6 from a deployment perspective to understand the root causes of why it failed (some may think "failure" is too strong a word, but I remember v6 being "just around the corner" in 2000, yet in 2019 I'm still connecting to a GCP database with v4). Coming up with a solution that looks like a huge technological advancement, with no real respect for th…

There are 3 problems with IPv6 - There is a lot in IPv6 that is different from IPv4. Ignoring if those changes are good or bad, it does make the transition harder. - IPv6 was promoted way before there was demand. To some extent it is good to prepare people (and vendors). But it does create the impression that IPv6 is a failure - Demand for IPv6 is highly asymmetrical. The party that is out of IPv4 addresses needs IPv…

> - Demand for IPv6 is highly asymmetrical. The party that is out of IPv4 addresses needs IPv6. But everyone who has enough IPv4 space has no reason to care.

We might need some way to force them... Google has done a lot of good by changing functionality for SEO + chrome by giving warning or giving PR boost if your site has a certain feature.

They should consider prioritizing sites that have both IPv4 and IPv6 and also warn users in the browser if the site does not have IPv6.

It's a legit warning too:

"Warning! This site may not work on some networks!"

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#295

Post by pseudalopex »

4bpp wrote: post #271
Dagger2 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would normally be called CGNAT. Yes, that does change things somewhat... except what's actually going to happen is that people will record the port number and the time as well as the IP, and the ISP is going to record every single connection you make in a big database, and then bill you for the privilege of doing it. Law enforcement will still be able to identify you, now your ISP has a record of everything you'…

As far as I know, several court cases in Germany have confirmed[1] that the mapping of dynamically assigned IP to customer identity may only be stored for 7 days. I imagine the same upper bound, or an even tighter one, applies to the records you are talking about. [1] https://www.e-recht24.de/news/datenschutz/10387-datenschutz-... (in German)

ISPs use port logs for the same reasons as address logs so I imagine a court would treat them the same.

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#296

Post by krylon »

vfq wrote: post #183
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because I get assigned a new prefix every 24 hours Which kinda defeats the purpose of having a globally reachable unique address in a lot of respects. How am I supposed to allow connections to this device in my firewall if the address is always changing?

For privacy purposes I hope most ISPs do this. Looks like the wet dream of adtech, to have everybody use a static IP address. No thanks.

Most operating systems these days support IPv6 privacy extensions where a device will pick a semi-random address every 24 hours. IIRC, it is the default on macOS. You can have a static prefix and random addresses per device.

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#297

Post by geofft »

d00bianista wrote: post #255
geofft wrote: post #14

This article completely fails to mention that IPv6 is not just an extension of the address space but a whole different worldview about how to run a network: - IPv6-to-IPv6 NAT has only been accepted very recently and very begrudgingly. Whatever your views are on NAT, the fact is that lots of people have network designs that rely on it, and if you want them to stop, you're now asking them to couple two major transitio…

> an attempted deployment of IPv6 caused packet storms in the MIT Computer Science and AI Lab's network They were relying on Spanning Tree in a who knows how big broadcast domain. Firstly, that's just begging for things to hit the fan. A single device having a meltdown will cause exactly this, a broadcast storm that is able to take down the entire campus, because it was a single broadcast domain. Secondly, it is a se…

I mean, sure, CSAIL might have been wrong. (Worth mentioning this is just a single building, not all of MIT.) But if even the MIT computer science network isn't set up "right," there's doubtless a huge amount of technical debt for everyone else who's not an MIT nerd to clean up before they can make IPv6 work. And IPv6 would have been more successful if the designers had taken that into account.

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#298

Post by ivlad »

paulddraper wrote: post #84
CydeWeys wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you're not joking, the nice thing about IPv4 is that it uses 32 bits, so you can store addresses in an unsigned int and use memory efficiently. Just adding one octet takes you up to 40 bits, which has alignment issues. You may as well go up to 64 bits (half of IPv6), which could be represented as 16 hex characters, e.g. 06A4.6E1B.12C9.95C8. That way you're kicking the can much farther down the road too.

I always wish IPv6 had done example this -- use 64 bits. The address space is still enormous: a couple billion for every currently living person (yes, I know allocating isn't 100% efficient, but even at 0.001% efficiency, that's still tens of thousands per capita). And, the address could fit in a common word size, and be significantly more readable. As is, IPv6's one-address-per-atom-on-Earth is unnecessary, the addr…

> The address space is still enormous: a couple billion for every currently living person (yes, I know allocating isn't 100% efficient, but even at 0.001% efficiency, that's still tens of thousands per capita).

The biggest problem with IPv4 is subnetting inefficiency. IPv6 had this large address space precisely because they wanted to have smallest subnet so big that we don't have to worry about it. This is why it is told, that in IPv6 you don't allocate IP addresses, you allocate subnets.

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#299

Post by tedd4u »

krylon wrote: post #38

I have been getting native IPv6 from my ISP for nearly six years now. It is not quite as cool as it could be, because I get assigned a new prefix every 24 hours, but still, IPv6 is there, and it "just works". When I connect to machines on my home network in any way involving avahi/zeroconf, the machines talk to each other via IPv6 by default. At work, it's a different story. I have drifted from a sysadmin/helpdesk ro…

What you're observing might be your operating system's behavior. There is a privacy feature of IPv6 called "privacy addresses" (or sometimes "temporary addresses").

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941

Some (most?) operating systems rotate the v6 privacy address daily or more often. The benefit of this is a) address not transparently based on permanent ethernet hardware MAC address and b) changes over time. Both are meant to hamper tracking.

If you're on a Mac and using IPv6, you can see these temporary privacy addresses stacking up over time if you type `ifconfig en0`. Old ones don't disappear immediately when rotated out since you need to be able to receive packets for a while. They are marked "deprecated" for some time before they disappear.

Re: Is there hope for IPv6?

#300

Post by krylon »

tedd4u wrote: post #299
krylon wrote: post #38

I have been getting native IPv6 from my ISP for nearly six years now. It is not quite as cool as it could be, because I get assigned a new prefix every 24 hours, but still, IPv6 is there, and it "just works". When I connect to machines on my home network in any way involving avahi/zeroconf, the machines talk to each other via IPv6 by default. At work, it's a different story. I have drifted from a sysadmin/helpdesk ro…

What you're observing might be your operating system's behavior. There is a privacy feature of IPv6 called "privacy addresses" (or sometimes "temporary addresses"). https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941 Some (most?) operating systems rotate the v6 privacy address daily or more often. The benefit of this is a) address not transparently based on permanent ethernet hardware MAC address and b) changes over time. Both are m…

I can tell the difference between my prefix changing and adresses within a prefix changing.
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