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Chromium blacklists Nouveau

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Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#211

Post by berkut »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #196
[deleted] wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

The new library which replaces wlc, wlroots, does not have that special code necessary to support the stupid Nvidia special-snowflake API. In simple terms, sway+wlroots DOES NOT have this line of code: if (nvidia proprietary driver) { suck(); } Rather, it looks like this: do_important_gpu_stuff(); // Nvidia does not implement this The Nvidia proprietary driver doesn't support the APIs necessary to run Sway. This is t…

Existence or lack of the correct APIs is not the reason Nouveau has been blacklisted - it's the functionality behind them that appears to be buggy and causing issues.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#213

Post by about3fitty »

nolok wrote: post #9

For anyone interested, the link really should be the full bug report: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=876523 The current link says it as if Chrome was not being fair, but reading their reasoning it makes total sense. Key quote from said bug report: > We thought about blacklisting nouveau driver long time ago, and decided to let more adventurous users to play around. Now that Ubuntu ships with no…

The bugginess of the nouveau driver has been an accepted fact since time immemorial. Hence the reason for Torvalds' middle finger on the subject. Nvidia is slowly coming around but the arc of history isn't treating it well.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#215

Post by kps »

zanny wrote: post #109
larkeith wrote: post #96

> One idea is to flip GL_VENDOR to some random string if chromium is running. What? Don't do this - never do this. Regardless of whether or not you agree with Chromium's decision, it is their decision to make as the project maintainers; trying to trick the software with falsified data is overstepping your bounds, and both corrodes trust in your driver and leads to whitelists. I thought we had moved past the days of f…

The problem is that the Nouveau (and Ubuntu) devs have no way to overturn Googles decision in Chrome . Ubuntu can compile Chromium with a modified blacklist but Google distributes Chrome in a deb. You would need some special logic to catch the Chrome .desktop on install and add in the unblacklist flag.

They could add “--ignore-gpu-blacklist” to their .desktop entry for Chrome.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#216

Post by wolfgke »

nickysielicki wrote: post #32
bhaak wrote: post #21

Both projects seem to put the blame on the other project. IMO, there are at least two other factions that can be blamed equally well. First, nvidia for not providing OSS drivers and second, the user who runs an OS on hardware that can't be properly supported on this OS at the moment. For years I have the rule that I prefer hardware that has proper Linux support. Even going a bit further that I try not to buy hardware…

> nvidia for not providing OSS drivers It's worse than this. Nvidia does not merely not provide open source drivers, they actively preclude work on Nouveau. Phoronix link: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-...

> It's worse than this. Nvidia does not merely not provide open source drivers, they actively preclude work on Nouveau.

If the noveau developers had true hacker spirit, they would move nouveau development into the darknet.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#217

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

cwyers wrote: post #206
ddevault wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not demanding that they do work. I'm demanding that they do not deliberately sabotoge the nouveau driver. If they find the nouveau driver lacking, they should improve it, not sabatoge it. If they don't want to put the work in, then they should just leave well enough alone.

But it's not well enough, people are filing bug reports with Chromium that are really bugs in noveau.

So Chromium should direct these users to the right place and close their ticket.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#218

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

joshuamorton wrote: post #209
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new library which replaces wlc, wlroots, does not have that special code necessary to support the stupid Nvidia special-snowflake API. In simple terms, sway+wlroots DOES NOT have this line of code: if (nvidia proprietary driver) { suck(); } Rather, it looks like this: do_important_gpu_stuff(); // Nvidia does not implement this The Nvidia proprietary driver doesn't support the APIs necessary to run Sway. This is t…

>Nouveau implements the necessary APIs This is not correct. They may have methods that match the required signatures, but the APIs do not do what they are supposed to do. "Crashing my computer" is not a documented feature of any webgl API I'm aware of. From an API perspective, Nouveau lies (perhaps not intentionally, but in reality) to its consumers. Nouveau isn't holding up any part of the bargain. Having correct me…

Where is this idea that nouveau is crashing coming from?

And don't be ridiculous. All software has bugs, including Chromium. Should I detect Chromium and blacklist it on my sites in preparation for future bugs? Just a few weeks ago I found a Chromium bug when I was working on a website. I did not blacklist the browser, naturally.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#219

Post by monocasa »

vetinari wrote: post #59
monocasa wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What else are they going to ship ? Including Nvidia's binary driver by default. Obvs Debian, gNewSense, and GUIX can't do that, but since when have corps cared about them? Like, don't get me wrong, I'm a FOSS or GTFO kind of guy, running Debian and Replicant, but shipping proprietary drivers by default is what chrome is hinting at obviously.

You can't, for the same reason you can't ship ZFS. The combining of proprietary and GPL code has to be made by the user and the result is un-distributable. That's why distributions cannot ship it. What they can do is to make the above step easy (which Ubuntu does).

It's way more complicated than that.

AFAIU, Nvidia's legal argument is that their driver can't be 'derived from' the Linux kernel even though it's linked into the kernel since it's older than their Linux port and only is linked against their GPLed (and if push comes to shove, dual licensed GPL and proprietary) kernel abstraction layer. Judges don't care about linkers and the GPL doesn't actually say anything about linking.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#220

Post by AnssiH »

emersion wrote: post #31

Nouveau are doing their best to reverse-engineer cards. NVIDIA doesn't help at all, not providing any docs and not interacting with the rest of the community. On the other hand, Intel and AMD have high-quality drivers and are part of the open-source community.

> NVIDIA doesn't help at all, not providing any docs and not interacting with the rest of the community.

That is simply not true.

Various docs, provided based on requests by Nouveau developers: https://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/

Documentation released in the last year include e.g. https://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/MemoryTweakTable/1/... https://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/MemoryClockTable/1/... https://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/BIOS-Information-Ta...

The announcement of the first piece of documentation in 2013: https://www.mail-archive.com/nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org/m...

Commits with @nvidia.com addresses (including Reviewed-By tags etc.) to nouveau driver: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...

You can also regularly see posts by NVIDIA employees on the nouveau mailing list.

Sure, they are contributing nowhere near as much as AMD or Intel, but to say they are not interacting at all or not providing any docs or not helping at all is clearly false.

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