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What It's Like to Work at Apple

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Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#21

Post by ig1 »

borski wrote: post #14
ig1 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And of course if someone doesn't stay later it means they're not dedicated to the product, so obviously aren't suitable for promotion, salary increases, etc.

No, actually, that wasn't usually how it worked. It was all about performance rather than time spent on-site. If you could get done in 4 hours what took me 8, you would be just as eligible for any promotions as I. Probably more-so, however, since you'd probably have worked 8 hours anyway and gotten twice as much done. ;)

It sounds to me like your saying that if someone wanted to work an 8 hour day, they'd have to match what you do in (say) 12 hours ?

i.e. if someone was equally productive (or even 25% more productive), but still produced less than you purely because they worked the scheduled hours, than they'd be less likely to get promotions, etc. ?

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#22

Post by adamesque »

I worked at Apple for 5 years (ending in summer '08), and one of the most amazing things about the experience was how well most people understood the core vision of the company, even in departments where you wouldn't expect that – like call center management.

I've worked with other big tech companies and frequently heard people talking about doing things "more like Apple". It was funny to think that was exactly the way people inside Apple talked too. Everyone's on board.

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#23

Post by jonnathanson »

nostromo wrote: post #18
smiler wrote: post #2

Would be great if he had expanded on the 'no career path' section - that will probably be something that most people want to know about - surely there must be different levels of developers to some extent? Moving from development to management? Any Apple employees on here like to comment?

The way he mentions that Apple HR confirms that there are 'no career paths' at Apple makes me think he's referring to a more regimented promotion system (a la GE).

This is probably what he means. It's the case at a lot of companies, and particularly tech companies. There's probably no set rulebook along the lines of "You will spend X years in Y position in Z department, then you will be promoted to Y+1, where you will spend another X years until Y+2," etc.

That kind of structured progression seems to be going away in a lot of industries, with the notable exceptions being the big client-facing industries (consulting, banking, law, and so forth).

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#24

Post by kunjaan »

nostromo wrote: post #18
smiler wrote: post #2

Would be great if he had expanded on the 'no career path' section - that will probably be something that most people want to know about - surely there must be different levels of developers to some extent? Moving from development to management? Any Apple employees on here like to comment?

The way he mentions that Apple HR confirms that there are 'no career paths' at Apple makes me think he's referring to a more regimented promotion system (a la GE).

Could you elaborate more on the system?

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#25

Post by chollida1 »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #19
borski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I only worked at Apple for about 8 months (started as a summer intern), I can completely echo this. It's never that we _have_ to stay later, it's that we _want_ to. You really have a dedication to the product because you want your customers to love you; that was the overall mindset. With a deadline, that means you'll do almost anything to meet it and succeed. As for the secrecy, you're totally right. I roomed w…

An honest question: Why do you want to work such long days when there is so much evidence that total productive work per week doesn't increase beyond around 40 hours of work for most knowledge worker jobs, especially software development?

> when there is so much evidence that total productive work per week doesn't increase beyond around 40 hours of work for most knowledge worker jobs

I don't think this is true, though maybe you can find a source to prove it?

What I've often heard and read is that the percentage of work falls off after a certain amount of hours per week.

or put another way, working 80 hours may not give you a doubling of productivity over 40 hours but it will increase the amount of productive output.

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#26

Post by gamble »

jonnathanson wrote: post #23
nostromo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way he mentions that Apple HR confirms that there are 'no career paths' at Apple makes me think he's referring to a more regimented promotion system (a la GE).

This is probably what he means. It's the case at a lot of companies, and particularly tech companies. There's probably no set rulebook along the lines of "You will spend X years in Y position in Z department, then you will be promoted to Y+1, where you will spend another X years until Y+2," etc. That kind of structured progression seems to be going away in a lot of industries, with the notable exceptions being the bi…

If you look at company reviews on glassdoor.com, you'll notice that people either complain that their company has too many layers of management, or that there are no opportunities for advancement.

I've never heard anyone claim that Apple is overly bureaucratic.

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#27

Post by borski »

ig1 wrote: post #21
borski wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually, that wasn't usually how it worked. It was all about performance rather than time spent on-site. If you could get done in 4 hours what took me 8, you would be just as eligible for any promotions as I. Probably more-so, however, since you'd probably have worked 8 hours anyway and gotten twice as much done. ;)

It sounds to me like your saying that if someone wanted to work an 8 hour day, they'd have to match what you do in (say) 12 hours ? i.e. if someone was equally productive (or even 25% more productive), but still produced less than you purely because they worked the scheduled hours, than they'd be less likely to get promotions, etc. ?

Potentially, but promotions are generally given for work that exceeds expectations; isn't this the way it should be?

Producing the 'minimal expected' amount of work for a prolonged period of time (reliability) is cause for being promoted as well, I suppose, but takes more time.

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#28

Post by retroryan »

yardie wrote: post #3

Reservists called up to active duty are put into a military-leave status and they remain Apple employees while Apple makes up the salary difference between their military pay and their Apple pay until they return. I wonder if other companies do this. I know by law they are required to keep those positions for active reserves but I don't think they are required to continue to pay their salary. In the past, I've worked…

I am pretty sure Oracle does this as well.

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#29

Post by Robin_Message »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #19
borski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I only worked at Apple for about 8 months (started as a summer intern), I can completely echo this. It's never that we _have_ to stay later, it's that we _want_ to. You really have a dedication to the product because you want your customers to love you; that was the overall mindset. With a deadline, that means you'll do almost anything to meet it and succeed. As for the secrecy, you're totally right. I roomed w…

An honest question: Why do you want to work such long days when there is so much evidence that total productive work per week doesn't increase beyond around 40 hours of work for most knowledge worker jobs, especially software development?

You're right to bring this up, and certainly those studies are the best hard numbers we have, but:

Do the studies correct for employee satisfaction with working more, corporate culture, employee skill, employee personal life status, or level of excitement/interest in work? Because I think all of those would be a positive factor at Apple.

Re: What It's Like to Work at Apple

#30

Post by n-named »

kenjackson wrote: post #13
borski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I only worked at Apple for about 8 months (started as a summer intern), I can completely echo this. It's never that we _have_ to stay later, it's that we _want_ to. You really have a dedication to the product because you want your customers to love you; that was the overall mindset. With a deadline, that means you'll do almost anything to meet it and succeed. As for the secrecy, you're totally right. I roomed w…

It's never that we _have_ to stay later, it's that we _want_ to. I hear this from people, but I rarely buy it. I'm not saying that you didn't want to stay later, but say Tim wanted to just work 8 to 5 each day, would everyone say, "Hey that's cool. We feel bad that you can't stay later, but it's 100% fine that you work 8 hours per day"? It just seems like places I've been, if a handful of sufficiently respected produ…

http://www.apple.com/ipad/

Clearly not made by people that think this way. I doubt even higher up staff think this way. I.e. Jobs, Ive.

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