Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash • Hacker News Board

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#101

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

state_less wrote: post #27

woodruffw wrote: post #5

Only tangentially related, but I am continually astonished by the absence of any sort of social norms surrounding cigarette butt disposal. I have (otherwise environmentally conscious!) friends who smoke, and I've personally witnessed them flick their cigarettes into gutters and on streets. As a serious question, without judgment: are there any smokers on HN who can explain the phenomenon?

From the article: In one focus group cited in industry documents, smokers said tossing their butts to the ground was “a natural extension of the defiant/rebellious smoking ritual.”

In addition to ignorance about the non-biodegradable nature of cigarette butts, I think it's very much a case of egocentric pseudo-macho faux-rebellion against society.

It comes from the same mindset as diesel truck owners rolling coal on cyclists and people in hybrid cars, and destruction of public property (park benches, trash cans and such).

Some people either just don't give a shit about other people, or are actively antagonistic.

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#102

Post by standardUser » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #5

Only tangentially related, but I am continually astonished by the absence of any sort of social norms surrounding cigarette butt disposal. I have (otherwise environmentally conscious!) friends who smoke, and I've personally witnessed them flick their cigarettes into gutters and on streets. As a serious question, without judgment: are there any smokers on HN who can explain the phenomenon?

Former smoker here and guilty of throwing many butts on the ground even though I find any other form of litter unthinkable.

When I was much younger I believed that cigarette butts biodegraded in a couple years. No big deal, right? I distinctly remember reading this on a sign at a campsite when I was about 18. Turns out, that's an ideal scenario and butts can take up to 10 years to break down naturally, and even then various "degraded" toxins are still present in the environment indefinitely.

But that campsite sign was enough to fuel 15 years of cognitive dissonance that allowed me to toss butts on the ground like they were pieces of old lettuce.

That, and the mind-bending power of nicotine addiction, which is vastly more powerful than most people realize.

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#103

Post by rndgermandude » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

feelix wrote: post #45

woodruffw wrote: post #5

Only tangentially related, but I am continually astonished by the absence of any sort of social norms surrounding cigarette butt disposal. I have (otherwise environmentally conscious!) friends who smoke, and I've personally witnessed them flick their cigarettes into gutters and on streets. As a serious question, without judgment: are there any smokers on HN who can explain the phenomenon?

When I used to smoke I did not litter butts when I could avoid it, but they are so disgusting (they stink, they make your fingers stink, if you wrap it in some paper or plastic and put it in your pocket your pants will stink) that you just want to get rid of it. Most things are easier to get rid of because you can put them in a bag or something until you come across a trash can.

The number of butts littered in my city in general and at public transport stops in particularly decreased very significantly ever since most public trash cans where upgraded to have a built-in ashtray (whereas previous trash cans explicitly said not to throw in "hot ashes"), and there is a lot more trash cans in general (which also reduced the general amount of littering drastically).

Approaching a tram/bus stop, you can always tell from a bit of a distance if the trash can is full, because when it is the immediate area surrounding/beneath it is a sea of cigarette butts. Even then, it seems, while most smokers will NOT take their butts with them and dispose of them properly elsewhere, they will still not just litter everywhere and anywhere, instead "placing" their butts next to the full trash can, maybe to make a statement that at least they tried...

The amount of butts littered in the downtown area with all the historic buildings and historic cobblestone streets - but also very busy with most of the bigger item shops there - is extremely low by now, virtually non-existent in most areas, not just because there are ashtray-ized trash cans there too, but also because there is city officers regularly patrolling there, making sure people don't litter in general, beggars/musicians stick by the rules, bike riders don't use the pedestrian only areas, etc. Those patrols will fine you for your flicked butts, EUR 35 on regular streets and EUR 80 when you litter on harder to clean cobblestone IIRC.

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#104

Post by ip26 » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

krisroadruck wrote: post #100

odiroot wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but are you five or something? There are very good reasons to treat smokers negatively and you, completely without shame, gave us another one.

Just out of curiosity, do you also think its totally fine to treat fat people negatively? Ugh. The amount of vitriol in this whole comment section towards smokers is disturbing. Almost every smoker I know picked up the habit in their early teens. A habit which is extremely addicting, and very hard to kick, more so the longer you've been doing it. Being shitty to them certainly wont help. At the macro level first they…

I am generally on your side of the fence- I think we forget smokers are also people- but where you choose to smoke is still an active choice. Most of the ire I see directed at smokers is for smoking around pregnant women, infants, and in public places they aren't supposed to be smoking. And for all the cigarette butts. All of these things are active choices.

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#105

Post by hossbeast » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:41 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #101

state_less wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: In one focus group cited in industry documents, smokers said tossing their butts to the ground was “a natural extension of the defiant/rebellious smoking ritual.”

In addition to ignorance about the non-biodegradable nature of cigarette butts, I think it's very much a case of egocentric pseudo-macho faux-rebellion against society. It comes from the same mindset as diesel truck owners rolling coal on cyclists and people in hybrid cars, and destruction of public property (park benches, trash cans and such). Some people either just don't give a shit about other people, or are acti…

"diesel truck owners rolling coal on cyclists and people in hybrid cars".

What does this mean?

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#106

Post by slfnflctd » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

cgag wrote: post #43

lmilcin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smoking is addiction that is demonstrably bad for your health and has no benefits. I grew up in an environment where smoking was encouraged and I can understand a person that conforms to their buddies. I have personally never tasted it but when I was teen virtually everybody smoked and it took a lot of willpower to withstand the pressure. I think these days, in western world, except for schools, low income neighborho…

there are tons of benefits which is why people do it

I'm one of the sorta-fortunate (I guess) ones who almost never got any pleasure out of cigarettes. Something about my physical composition doesn't jibe well with them. A handful of times when the air was super humid, I was intoxicated in some way and/or my body was in a certain equilibrium, I experienced the enjoyment, but the rest of the time (~95%) they made me feel worse. I was still stupid enough to keep doing it for social reasons way longer than I should have.

My small experiments with cannabis have made me wonder how tobacco possibly could have ever become more popular, the former's effects are much more noticeable with a vastly smaller amount of smoke and can be quite pleasant.

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#107

Post by emteycz » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #58

woodruffw wrote: post #5

Only tangentially related, but I am continually astonished by the absence of any sort of social norms surrounding cigarette butt disposal. I have (otherwise environmentally conscious!) friends who smoke, and I've personally witnessed them flick their cigarettes into gutters and on streets. As a serious question, without judgment: are there any smokers on HN who can explain the phenomenon?

When something is taxed as much as cigarettes, it leads to a sense of entitlement for the user and an assumption that the cleanup cost is baked into the taxes.

In my country it actually is. When I tell people to clean up after themselves they say "I just paid the government to do so".

One day I will purchase a fleet of Boston Dynamics' SpotMini and the thing will bark loudly and follow the person until they take it and throw it into an ashtray. Public shaming must work, if not, what else could?

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#108

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

hossbeast wrote: post #105

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to ignorance about the non-biodegradable nature of cigarette butts, I think it's very much a case of egocentric pseudo-macho faux-rebellion against society. It comes from the same mindset as diesel truck owners rolling coal on cyclists and people in hybrid cars, and destruction of public property (park benches, trash cans and such). Some people either just don't give a shit about other people, or are acti…

"diesel truck owners rolling coal on cyclists and people in hybrid cars". What does this mean?

"Rolling coal" is deliberately tuning a diesel engine (by increasing the amount of fuel in relation to air) to make it emit large amount of sooty smoke on acceleration. Any particulate filters and other emissions equipments is usually also removed. It's a well-known term among car enthusiasts, I didn't consider that it probably isn't as well-known among people who are not car enthusiasts :-)

The intention is to "stick it to the environmentalists", by deliberately and visually polluting as much as possible, and by blowing this sooty smoke right at perceived environmentalists, ie. people on bicycles or in hybrid cars.

In other words, trying to be as much of an asshole as possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#109

Post by bostik » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #5

Only tangentially related, but I am continually astonished by the absence of any sort of social norms surrounding cigarette butt disposal. I have (otherwise environmentally conscious!) friends who smoke, and I've personally witnessed them flick their cigarettes into gutters and on streets. As a serious question, without judgment: are there any smokers on HN who can explain the phenomenon?

Second-order tangent incoming.

Back in the 1990s, when smoking inside was still allowed, a bar in Finland had a problem with people tossing their cigarette butts to the wide urinal in mens' toilet. Of course it was constantly clogged.

Tired of the disgusting cleaning routine, the owners eventually found an approach that helped. They put a new plaque on the wall above the urinal: "If you piss cigarette butts, please consult your doctor."

Re: Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

#110

Post by gruez » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

krisroadruck wrote: post #100

odiroot wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but are you five or something? There are very good reasons to treat smokers negatively and you, completely without shame, gave us another one.

Just out of curiosity, do you also think its totally fine to treat fat people negatively? Ugh. The amount of vitriol in this whole comment section towards smokers is disturbing. Almost every smoker I know picked up the habit in their early teens. A habit which is extremely addicting, and very hard to kick, more so the longer you've been doing it. Being shitty to them certainly wont help. At the macro level first they…

>Then it was no smoking in bars, in your own home, within 50 meters of a door (good luck in a packed in city).

what country/city is this? most places I've been don't have such limits or is limited to 9m at most

>Then it was "we don't hire smokers, even ones who don't smoke while they are at work". Then it was oh you switched to vaping because it doesn't smell as bad, has a much lower health risk but we're even going to be shitty to you for trying that.

I'm skeptical that this happens at any significant level.

>Maybe, just maybe we should try to remember that these folks are PEOPLE and still deserve to be treated with a modicum of decency, the same as we do for the poor, the overweight, members of the opposite sex, those of different gender identities and sexual preferences and so on and so forth.

some of the things in the list are unlike the others.

smoking/overweight: you have control over, and can take steps to stop it

everything else: you have no control over