Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model • Hacker News Board

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#171

Post by pseudalopex » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 12:07 AM UTC

jcims wrote: post #40

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

First congrats on finding something that works for you and making it stick! From that perspective, I can see why you would not like folks that insist on AA being a monopoly, but I'm curious about that position. I've seen a lot of people that hate AA and a lot of people that think it saved their lives, but I've never seen anyone say that AA must be the only way to sobriety. What's the angle?

AA's "Big Book" says "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves."[1] In other words, "it works if you work it". They may not say that AA is the only way to sobriety, but why would you need anything else?

[1] https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#172

Post by ggchappell » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 12:47 AM UTC

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

> ... I can't help but feel bitter towards the proponents of AA who insist on it being a monopoly... especially those in positions of power in the criminal justice or public health systems ....

Not an alcoholic, but I had extended discussions with a number of AA members some years ago. And I found that many of them also felt pretty negatively about the involvement of the justice system with AA. What happens (they said) is that people are forced to attend AA meetings as part of sentencing, but these people generally are not interested in recovery. The result is a lot of wasted time and the diversion of resources away from people who could be helped.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#173

Post by dbattaglia » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 1:36 AM UTC

jyriand wrote: post #122

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Anyone know if there is something similar to quit smoking? Tried to quit cold turkey 20 times at least, usually can’t get past the first day.

I’ve had success with nicotine patches. For me it worked best to very slowly ween myself down to lower doses over a period of several weeks. Been cigarette free for almost 5 years now (after smoking for 17 years).

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#174

Post by empath75 » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:24 AM UTC

turingcompeteme wrote: post #151

empath75 wrote: post #38

Most people with substance abuse problems “grow out of it” with no outside help at all. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/arti... Just from personal experience partying with lots of drugs and drinking in the rave scene when I was in my 20s and djing and promoting, the vast vast majority of people just got tired of it one day and quit — or it interferes with their jobs or their families and they…

These articles are silly, and don't understand alcoholism. They give a few examples of successful ways that people have quit on their own, and since lots of people did it that way, then it must be more effective than treatment. They miss the blindingly obvious point that every single person in treatment has already tried and failed those "self-help" ways. Treatment is a final, desperate, step for alcoholics, once all…

But 12 step is barely better than doing nothing at all, even in this groups.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#175

Post by TheSoberTruth » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

"The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry" https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00FIMWI1O/

> An exposé of Alcoholics Anonymous, 12-step programs, and the rehab industry—and how a failed addiction-treatment model came to dominate America.

> AA has become so infused in our society that it is practically synonymous with addiction recovery. Yet the evidence shows that AA has only a 5–10 percent success rate—hardly better than no treatment at all. Despite this, doctors, employers, and judges regularly refer addicted people to treatment programs and rehab facilities based on the 12-step model.

> In The Sober Truth, acclaimed addiction specialist Dr. Lance Dodes exposes the deeply flawed science that the 12-step industry has used to support its programs. Dr. Dodes analyzes dozens of studies to reveal a startling pattern of errors, misjudgments, and biases. He also pores over the research to highlight the best peer-reviewed studies available and discovers that they reach a grim consensus on the program’s overall success.

> But The Sober Truth is more than a book about addiction. It is also a book about science and how and why AA and rehab became so popular, despite the discouraging data. Dr. Dodes explores the entire story of AA’s rise, from its origins in early fundamentalist religious and mystical beliefs to its present-day place of privilege in politics and media.

> The Sober Truth includes true stories from Dr. Dodes’s thirty-five years of clinical practice, as well as firsthand accounts submitted by addicts through an open invitation on the Psychology Today website. These stories vividly reveal the experience of walking the steps and attending some of the nation’s most famous rehabilitation centers.

> The Sober Truth builds a powerful response to the monopoly of the 12-step program and explodes the myth that these programs offer an acceptable or universal solution to the deeply personal problem of addiction. This book offers new and actionable information for addicts, their families, and medical providers, and lays out better ways to understand addiction for those seeking a more effective and compassionate approach to this treatable problem. […]

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#176

Post by TheSoberTruth » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

TheSoberTruth wrote: post #175

"The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry" https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00FIMWI1O/ > An exposé of Alcoholics Anonymous, 12-step programs, and the rehab industry—and how a failed addiction-treatment model came to dominate America. > AA has become so infused in our society that it is practically synonymous with addiction recovery. Yet the evidence shows that AA has only…

If a 12 steps program works or has worked for you, that's wonderful.

People who want to change so that they can handle their life without the trouble are welcome to attend.

There are many types of therapy. In art therapy alone, what've we got here: music, dance, writing, film, drawing, writing about problems and lists of solutions for each and for all of them (maybe only for yourself and then for others), etc.

Problem:

Solutions:

-

- create a list of things that are reinforcing the [un]desired behaviors

- create a plan for doing something different with/about identified triggers (problems)

(I just thought of this and decided to share)

Healing the underlying PTSD (and high blood pressure and very complex anxiety partly resulting from having adapted counterproductive coping strategies and defense mechanisms) is the objective of a number of randomized controlled clinical trials.

Developing evidence-based treatment programs requires randomization and controls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#177

Post by TheSoberTruth » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

TheSoberTruth wrote: post #176

TheSoberTruth wrote: post #175

"The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry" https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00FIMWI1O/ > An exposé of Alcoholics Anonymous, 12-step programs, and the rehab industry—and how a failed addiction-treatment model came to dominate America. > AA has become so infused in our society that it is practically synonymous with addiction recovery. Yet the evidence shows that AA has only…

If a 12 steps program works or has worked for you, that's wonderful. People who want to change so that they can handle their life without the trouble are welcome to attend. There are many types of therapy. In art therapy alone, what've we got here: music, dance, writing, film, drawing, writing about problems and lists of solutions for each and for all of them (maybe only for yourself and then for others), etc. Proble…

An evidence-based parenting book I read recently (Kazdin) strongly emphasised ABC for understanding behavior: Antecdents, Behaviors, and Consequences

It also emphasized that far more effective than punishment is reinforcing the positive opposite.

What do you plan to do with your time that has positive ROI (return on investment) for yourself, your family and friends, and/or your community?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#178

Post by davidandgoliath » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 4:25 AM UTC

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Wow! Beautiful results. Count me in :)

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#179

Post by davidandgoliath » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 5:06 AM UTC

lastofus wrote: post #120

graeme wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this only work for alcoholism, or does naltrexone work for any compulsive behaviour?

I believe I read that Dr. Sinclair was thinking Naltrexone could also be used to help with any sort of addiction such as smoking or overeating. I don't think there is any clinical research to support this though in the same way there is research supporting its effectiveness with alcoholism.

Link? Curious!

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#180

Post by saghm » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

As someone who doesn't drink alcohol (and never has), this can often be a bit overwhelming. People tend to be very surprised when I tell them that I don't drink and are very confused when I'm unable to provide a reason like religious beliefs, a medical condition, or family history of alcoholism. From my perspective, it's pretty strange that I need a reason not to besides not wanting to; nobody seems to expect that I have a reason beyond that for any other form of entertainment activity, but consuming alcohol seems so ingrained in culture that people assume that anyone able to does so.