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Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

meltingasphalt.com

81–90 of 149 posts

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#81
post #53

The framing of this is all wrong. The problem isn't that developers are overpaid, it's that other industries' laborers have had their work systematically undervalued, all the way down to people performing essential services who can't afford to feed their families on full-time work. However you want to argue about payment/wealth being a problem, ultimately, the idea that workers being compensated "too much" (when defi…

This is true. The problem is that most jobs have had stagnant wages for decades and developers are an exception. That is where the guilt comes from. But we need income growth like we need other kinds of growth. The transition to carbon free economy is going to be expensive. It's not going to happen if we decide income growth is toxic.

> The problem is that most jobs have had stagnant wages for decades and developers are an exception.

Only if you think "most jobs" really means "Most jobs required unskilled labor in developed nations". China and the rest of Southeast Asia have enjoyed significant wage increase for decades.

Developers are an exception to your "most jobs" definition because they are not unskilled labor – well, some require less skill, but those have also not enjoyed the same level of wage upside.

The U.S. and all other developing economies (think OECD members) are increasingly "service economies". The high paying jobs are those providing services that require significant skill.

Commoditized jobs have been outsourced to Asia following globalization.

The U.S. inequality debate is entirely myopic because it compares capital and labor upside in the U.S. without taking into account all the upside the rest of the world has enjoyed.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#82
This reminds me of the section "Money Is Not Wealth" from Paul Graham's How to Make Wealth [1]:

"The solution societies find, as they get more specialized, is to make the trade into a two-step process. Instead of trading violins directly for potatoes, you trade violins for, say, silver, which you can then trade again for anything else you need. The intermediate stuff-- the medium of exchange-- can be anything that's rare and portable. Historically metals have been the most common, but recently we've been using a medium of exchange, called the dollar, that doesn't physically exist. It works as a medium of exchange, however, because its rarity is guaranteed by the U.S. Government."

The "two-step process" part reminds me of pointers, strangely. The metaphor doesn't make much sense though. A dollar points to wealth? Dereferencing a dollar obtains the wealth it points to?

[1] http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#83
> Suppose a genie offers to tweak the world in one of two ways. Either he will (A) double everyone's bank account, or (B) double the amount of food in existence. Which is better for society? Clearly the answer is B, doubling the food. Option A (doubling the money) merely creates more placeholders, more tokens — while option B creates more objects of intrinsic value. In other words, A is a zero-sum change, while B is positive-sum.

This would be incorrect if it turned out that there just wasn't enough money out there to provide sufficient liquidity. This is the reason bitcoin is nearly infinitely subdivisible and the nominal reason why stocks are split.

The value of money in general is the convenience value of not having to barter. If the currency has deflated to the point where nobody can use even your smallest denominations, then people will devise an alternative means of exchange that is more down to earth. So it can easily be a not zero-sum action to double the account numbers. It can be worth more than food can in an illiquid environment, because while the demand for food is fixed to the number of people in the world at any given time and that it spoils, money does not spoil and injecting more of it into an economy is a tried and tested stimulus technique. Just doubling the food doesn't necessarily mean that the people that need it are going to get it, something foreign aid organizations are intensely familiar with.

> Imagine if, after years of speculating in the Congolese grain market and accumulating millions of francs, you decide to cash out with one final act of buying a yacht through your window (then nailing it shut). Nevermind the logistics of passing a yacht into your living room. The point is it's an incredibly selfish act, and almost perfectly cancels out all the good you did through speculation.

Not at all, you're doing the equivalent of Pharaoh building his pyramid tomb, or more prosaically, retiring and spending the rest of your life making bad art. If Pharaoh didn't build his tomb, then Egyptians will think he's weak. The tomb is a symbol of Egypt's wealth and prominence, as is the yacht, and the bourgeois retirement. If you don't exercise the perks of your station, then you're basically saying that you're doing it all for nothing.

Capitalist society works precisely because everyone has a selfish motive, it wouldn't work at all if people didn't. The author thinking that money is intrinsically worthless is the same mistake as thinking that yachts are worthless. Symbols, of paper or of success, are important motivators. They have intrinsic value as symbols. If you fail to understand this then you're missing an important piece about how markets reflect human nature.

There are areas of the economy where the symbol value of goods far exceeds the utility value of them. Numismatics, fashion, and art pop to mind immediately. These markets can be understood, but not if you don't think symbols can have value.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#84
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the money used to buy that yacht paid the salaries and income of all the craftsmen and laborers that built it for you, compensating them for the value they provide to society. The point he is making is that they are compensated but no net value is returned to society as a result of their labor and resource expenditure. The yacht "disappears" in your private marina where it will rot away providing you with a purely…

I'm not sure I agree with this. The yacht could get very little use, but so could a house that you build for someone. If the argument is that we should only build public goods that will be widely used like parks, I disagree, because the concept of private property is very entrenched in our society, even in socialist countries. I also disagree that the Warren Buffet statue would have a negative effect on the wealth of…

The argument works even if no public parks are built. The point is that a higher number of people ("society") profits. They can hire more workers for the same money because workers are not busy building the statue. More people are getting their own needs met, versus a single person getting a very expensive need met.

Intrinsic value is not created by spending money, it's created by people doing work for that money. The right question to ask is "whom are they creating value for", not "how many papers did they get for it".

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#85
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author falls into the 'it's better to have cake than to eat it' camp. Of course wealth in this case is toxic - you miss the point of it.

> Of course wealth in this case is toxic Says who? That is not an axiomatic truth. You'll need to provide evidence.

>Definition of toxic (Entry 1 of 3) 1 : containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation toxic waste a toxic radioactive gas an insecticide highly toxic to birds 2 : exhibiting symptoms of infection or toxicosis the patient became toxic two days later 3 : extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful toxic sarcasm 4 : relating to or being an asset that has lost so much value that it cannot be sold on the market

You can't eat cake that's gone bad because you've kept it in your cupboard too long. Even though we're using a metaphor here, literally - in the very definition of literal - if you don't eat your cake, it actually does become toxic, defeating the purpose of having it in the first place.

edit: btw, I think we're in agreement. I'm advocating for thoughtful consumption.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#86
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of looking at his influence on the evonomy generally, I would look at the Gates foundation (where he has pledged most of his net worth) specifically. The Gates foundation directs a large amount of resources not to "prudent economic decisions" (eg, it looses money), but to non economic priorities he set. I have no particular complaints about the Gates foundation specifically, but in an idealized democracy, thi…

"The Gates foundation directs a large amount of resources not to "prudent economic decisions" (eg, it looses money), but to non economic priorities he set." This is true, and although certainly not a bad thing, is perhaps a sub-optimal allocation of economic output. There is perhaps an argument for having individuals with enough power to do this as a means of making decisions that are sub-optimal in the here and now,…

The two pricipled ways I have heard for determining resource allocation are democracy and markets. Private philanthropy follows neither. As I alluded to above, there are certainly practical benifits of private philanthropy, as our democratic institutions are systematically bad at certain classes of problems.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#87
post #6

This article is an interesting thought experiment, but I can't help but feel that the statements made are in such opposition to understood economic principle and call into question basic moral precepts. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it just feels alien to read. As an example of what I mean, the idea of consumption being a net-negative destructive action goes against the economic concept of velocity of money and how t…

I thought that too. If getting money is good, then spending can't be all bad because you must be giving it to someone else and at minimum creating good for that person, possibly less good if it's spread the a corporation instead of directly to an individual.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#89
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You began by comparing Bill Gates to us as consumers, but ended comparing him to an institution, of which he is. His personal wealth is managed by a private investment company, and his impacts on the economy are matched only by others of equal diversified wealth, world governments, and other powerful institutions. Bill Gates being one man with the power of governments and institutions is the inequality we are all tal…

Did you create the same value to society as Bill Gates? So why do you think you deserve the same wealth?

Because they are a human being.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#90
There's a logical contradiction at the heart of this. If spending money destroys social value and receiving it represents the creation of social value, then every act has to be neutral. When you buy the yacht from the Congo at the end and light it on fire, you can't have destroyed value overall, because, well, the yacht builders got money so clearly they created as much value as you destroyed. (Represented in some weird hedonic sense as the pleasure you got from the burning yacht, perhaps.)

Slightly more technical translation of the above: this essay is a great illustration of the vacuity of the revealed preference theory of value, important in economics but widely shredded in every other discipline just because it entails silly consequences like whenever someone pays you to do something that indicates that you did something genuinely valuable for them, an idea that reduces the notion of "valuable" to nothing but observed behavior.

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