Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

abc.net.au

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 201 posts

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#71

Post by virgilp »

foldr wrote: post #55
virgilp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ingesting too large amounts of caffeine is almost certainly bad for you. It's a stimulant that increases your blood pressure and heart rate. You don't want to overdo that. It's also diuretic, if you substitute water for coffee (which some people do) it can actually lead to dehydration. But yes, I agree to your larger point that coffee is less dangerous than alcohol.

>It's a stimulant that increases your blood pressure and heart rate. Does it do that to a significant extent to regular users, though? I thought the stimulant effects mostly went away once you build up a tolerance. Similarly, there is little diuretic effect for regular coffee drinkers: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140402-are-coffee-and-tea-...

Interesting, I didn't know that.

As to stimulation effect for regular users... I guess it might depend, but for me, I do notice when I drink too much coffee. And I am a "regular user" - I'd say I drink around 4 espresso a day (which is not a problem, but if say I bump that up to 10, I definitely feel it)

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#72

Post by Retric »

dnate wrote: post #30
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/oct/27/worlddispatch.... "The findings reveal that the widespread perception of the French as a healthy nation is rapidly becoming outdated."

> "We're not proponents of complete abstinence. There probably is an amount of drinking that's OK," LoConte told NPR in June. "But from a cancer-prevention standpoint, drinking the least amount of alcohol possible would be the best strategy." I always found defending your drinking with the "a glass of wine a day is good for your heart" study a bit lame. But advocating abstinence because no level of alcohol is safe is…

Saying something is ok in moderation always defines moderation relative to the harm. This study puts moderation very low ~1-2 glasses of wine a month. Studies focused on different forms of harm have different thresholds, but you get all forms of harm not just what a specific study looks at.

Saying I accept the harm for this benefit is fine, but pretending it does not exist is irrational.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#73

Post by sobernowadays »

virgilp wrote: post #45
joekrill wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends what you define as "not ok". I mean, why is smoking 4-5 times a week not ok? Why is shooting up heroin 4-5 times a week not ok? In the end, we're simply willfully poisoning ourselves. For some reason we, as a society, have decided that it's OK to poison ourselves with certain substances (caffeine, cigarette smoke) but not others (heroin, methamphetamines). We've made this socially acceptable. So if…

I don't know enough about smoking or heroin to know whether they produce actual damage to your health, if done in small enough dosages. I guess 5 cigarettes per week (one per day) might not be that bad? But maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, smoking bothers others too (unlike drinking), and heroin is much more addictive (I suspect 5 doses a week would definitely end up hurting you). By "not ok" I mean "actually harmful to your…

Specialists are making that claim: the dangers start at the first glass. It's not a conspiracy theory. Google a bit and you can find a few decent studies.

I'd also add that alcohol definitely bothers people, maybe not just you.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#74

Post by graeme »

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Does this only work for alcoholism, or does naltrexone work for any compulsive behaviour?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#75

Post by PakG1 »

randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

The unfortunate thing is how much people actually buy into it. I remember once in university, I was at a national entrepreneurship conference for student entrepreneurs. One night, there was a party at a club type of venue. I was sitting with a pretty female friend from my university when she asked me to get her water. So I went and got her a bottle of water. This jerk from another university walks up to us and incredulously asks me, "You got her water??? Here??? You got her water??? What's wrong with you???"

Nerdy, socially awkward me at the time couldn't think of a comeback and I felt embarrassed that I didn't get her a beer or cocktail. But I was also really annoyed, like logically, why am I the embarrassed one here? Today's me would have a lot more confidence and some witty comebacks. :)

But... part of me wonders... how much did that guy really believe what he was saying, and how much was that guy also just a scared kid inside trying to act cool and fit in due to the imagery he's been bombarded with?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#77

Post by virgilp »

Retric wrote: post #72
dnate wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We're not proponents of complete abstinence. There probably is an amount of drinking that's OK," LoConte told NPR in June. "But from a cancer-prevention standpoint, drinking the least amount of alcohol possible would be the best strategy." I always found defending your drinking with the "a glass of wine a day is good for your heart" study a bit lame. But advocating abstinence because no level of alcohol is safe is…

Saying something is ok in moderation always defines moderation relative to the harm. This study puts moderation very low ~1-2 glasses of wine a month. Studies focused on different forms of harm have different thresholds, but you get all forms of harm not just what a specific study looks at. Saying I accept the harm for this benefit is fine, but pretending it does not exist is irrational.

Do you have the study? Not some newspaper articles. It feels very unlikely to me that they were able to prove harm from 3 glasses a month, I'd like to read that.

[edit] In the article cited in NPR, https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2818... , which makes the claim "zero consumption minimises risk", you can see that ischemic heart disease & diabetes risks actually go down for 1 glass a day, while cancer & tuberculosis go slightly up. Their own chart of "relative weighted risk from all attributable causes" is flat-line for the first 1 glass/day. And that's from the paper that's cited to say "no level of alcohol consumption is safe!"

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#78

Post by kuhhk »

mdhen wrote: post #54
robertAngst wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you detail this more?

You really naltrexone when you drink, and only when you drink. They also advise drinking somewhat frequently at the start so your brain can quickly break the connection between alcohol and having a really good time. Once it is broken you do need to continue using naltrexone every time you want a drink or over time you will go back to being addicted. But it is generic and not expensive to get.

I’m confused. When I googled Naltrexone, it warns: “Alcohol: Avoid. Very serious interactions can occur”. So are you supposed to take it hours before drinking or something else?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#79

Post by virgilp »

sobernowadays wrote: post #73
virgilp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know enough about smoking or heroin to know whether they produce actual damage to your health, if done in small enough dosages. I guess 5 cigarettes per week (one per day) might not be that bad? But maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, smoking bothers others too (unlike drinking), and heroin is much more addictive (I suspect 5 doses a week would definitely end up hurting you). By "not ok" I mean "actually harmful to your…

Specialists are making that claim: the dangers start at the first glass. It's not a conspiracy theory. Google a bit and you can find a few decent studies. I'd also add that alcohol definitely bothers people, maybe not just you.

I did google, all I found were journalists making that claim, and no convincing data. See e.g. my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18824502 - about one of the papers that's cited here to make this claim.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#80

Post by geggam »

People who abuse substances are attempting to escape their reality because they feel powerless to change it. Educating people how to change their life is the cure.

That or changing society so people aren't powerless to fix their own destiny.

Until that happens the chemical people are addicted to is irrelevant. They can use any number of drugs to include sugar in a way that is detrimental to their health and will do so.

Post reply on HN