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Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

arstechnica.com

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Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#41

Post by will_brown »

sho wrote: post #34
will_brown wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the solution is typically implemented with a bounty program which is known to result in the intentional release of more of the invasive species to collect more rewards.

"Is known to"? By who? It sounds like you've read the anecdote about the Cobra Effect and generalized into the conclusion that no bounty system could ever work, which is demonstrably incorrect. Place a nominal bounty on the monkeys of, say, $50 each and threaten anyone attempting to breed and release the animals for profit with a lifetime jail sentence and the Cobra Effect would not arise.

>It sounds like you've read the anecdote about the Cobra Effect and generalized...

I’d say it sounds like you read about the anecdote and have little first hand experience with these bounty programs in Florida. Whereas I live in south Florida and I am familiar with fraud and failure of these bounty programs with pythons and lion fish...whereas I have seen non-bounty government programs gain ground in the eradication of giant African snails.

Good luck gaining any ground with advocating for life time jail sentences for breeding animals (invasive or otherwise) in Florida. Have any evidence such a program has ever existed?

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#43

Post by sho »

will_brown wrote: post #41
sho wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Is known to"? By who? It sounds like you've read the anecdote about the Cobra Effect and generalized into the conclusion that no bounty system could ever work, which is demonstrably incorrect. Place a nominal bounty on the monkeys of, say, $50 each and threaten anyone attempting to breed and release the animals for profit with a lifetime jail sentence and the Cobra Effect would not arise.

>It sounds like you've read the anecdote about the Cobra Effect and generalized... I’d say it sounds like you read about the anecdote and have little first hand experience with these bounty programs in Florida. Whereas I live in south Florida and I am familiar with fraud and failure of these bounty programs with pythons and lion fish...whereas I have seen non-bounty government programs gain ground in the eradication…

> Have any evidence such a program has ever existed?

It was an argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate that with sufficient disincentives to cheating, the "Cobra Effect" might be effectively countered - in reply to your questionable claim that any and all bounty program "is known" to not work, as if that's some sort of law of physics.

I'm not familiar with the failed python and fish programs you mention, but I'll take your word for it that they were implemented so incompetently and supervised so inadequately that fraudulent breeding for profit took place. That said, I'd believe almost anything about Southern Florida and perhaps you're right that it's not the ideal place for a government program requiring tight control and a deft touch.

Having read the article - there's only 200 monkeys and they're all pretty localized to one place - I don't see the problem with the government simply doing it themselves, so I agree somewhat, but still take issue with your generalizations. Bounty programs are known to be unworkable, in South Florida, with snakes and fish. That's it. Oh, and in possibly-apocryphal British India.

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#44

Post by eschulz »

deadfall wrote: post #23

I'm actually from that area and recently been back to take the glass bottom boat tour. The monkey's are pretty illusive and usually stay away from humans and live in the Silver Springs state park, which is next to the Ocala national forest (second largest nationally protected forest in the US). I remember the guide telling us only a few people have died from contact. In those cases were reseacher/scientist that had b…

*second largest national forest in Florida.

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#45

Post by honkycat »

will_brown wrote: post #25
honkycat wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO this is the most pragmatic solution. Why keep around an invasive species that carries a deadly virus?

Because the solution is typically implemented with a bounty program which is known to result in the intentional release of more of the invasive species to collect more rewards.

Fair, would be messy to implement.

Plus who wants to be the "murder the tiny adorable monkeys" politician haha

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#46

Post by dahdum »

sho wrote: post #43
will_brown wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It sounds like you've read the anecdote about the Cobra Effect and generalized... I’d say it sounds like you read about the anecdote and have little first hand experience with these bounty programs in Florida. Whereas I live in south Florida and I am familiar with fraud and failure of these bounty programs with pythons and lion fish...whereas I have seen non-bounty government programs gain ground in the eradication…

> Have any evidence such a program has ever existed? It was an argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate that with sufficient disincentives to cheating, the "Cobra Effect" might be effectively countered - in reply to your questionable claim that any and all bounty program "is known" to not work, as if that's some sort of law of physics. I'm not familiar with the failed python and fish programs you mention, but I'll take…

I don’t see why a bounty wouldn’t work in this case either. Certainly would cost more than $50 to raise a monkey to kill for bounty, when the entire bounty pool would be barely $20k.

I doubt you need to even give a bounty though, just open them for hunting. Better yet give out a commemorative plaque.

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#47

Post by velosol »

newnewpdro wrote: post #40
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd pay a pretty penny for a cure, or total suppression of transmission. It's not life altering in any way besides the fact that HSV2 has such a strong stigma in the US and tends to turn away a non insignificant number of romantic partners. From a health perspective, I had a rash once in my life and basically entirely forgot about even having it (outside of taking 800mg of Acyclovir every day), but from a social pers…

You're ignoring how life-altering it becomes as one ages and the immune system declines. I've had elderly relatives down with shingles, caused by the herpes virus, for months . Their shingles being a very latent reappearance of Chickenpox acquired in childhood. These viruses are opportunistic, and you will grow weaker in time, if you don't die first. The stigma, in this case, is appropriate in my opinion. It surprise…

>I'm confident once we have them, it will conveniently become "discovered" that HSV has been quietly responsible for some prolific form of suffering like Alzheimers and/or Parkinsons all this time.

Not sure if you were making reference to a specific belief, but there's already some evidence that HSV1 may be part of the Alzheimer's cause puzzle [1].

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4019841/

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#48

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

newnewpdro wrote: post #40
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd pay a pretty penny for a cure, or total suppression of transmission. It's not life altering in any way besides the fact that HSV2 has such a strong stigma in the US and tends to turn away a non insignificant number of romantic partners. From a health perspective, I had a rash once in my life and basically entirely forgot about even having it (outside of taking 800mg of Acyclovir every day), but from a social pers…

You're ignoring how life-altering it becomes as one ages and the immune system declines. I've had elderly relatives down with shingles, caused by the herpes virus, for months . Their shingles being a very latent reappearance of Chickenpox acquired in childhood. These viruses are opportunistic, and you will grow weaker in time, if you don't die first. The stigma, in this case, is appropriate in my opinion. It surprise…

I don't think anybody's claiming that having HSV is better than not having HSV, but the fact is that it's incredibly common. It's been with us for millennia and it's not going anywhere until medicine and technology figure out a way to wipe it out. To quote herpes.com stats:

> By the time they're teenagers or young adults, about 50% of Americans have HSV-1 antibodies in their blood. By the time they are over age 50, some 80-90% of Americans have HSV-1 antibodies.

And this is HSV1 alone. You add HSV2 to it and, I believe according to some stats, you end up with 80% of the world population having some variation of it. Stigmatizing 4 out of 5 people in the world makes no sense and is helping nobody. You can't avoid getting it, unless you never interact with another human being, and treating others like broken goods until you become one too (because it IS only a matter of time) is inhumane.

On a related note, I believe the majority of the stigma comes from HSV2, which I'm sure has much more to do with sexual morality than with medicine. Nobody blinks an eye if you have its oral counterpart, you go to CVS and buy a Blistex. However, if you have the genital version, now THAT is a problem. Same virus, vastly different reaction.

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#49

Post by will_brown »

sho wrote: post #43
will_brown wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It sounds like you've read the anecdote about the Cobra Effect and generalized... I’d say it sounds like you read about the anecdote and have little first hand experience with these bounty programs in Florida. Whereas I live in south Florida and I am familiar with fraud and failure of these bounty programs with pythons and lion fish...whereas I have seen non-bounty government programs gain ground in the eradication…

> Have any evidence such a program has ever existed? It was an argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate that with sufficient disincentives to cheating, the "Cobra Effect" might be effectively countered - in reply to your questionable claim that any and all bounty program "is known" to not work, as if that's some sort of law of physics. I'm not familiar with the failed python and fish programs you mention, but I'll take…

Ah yes the old “it’s not a Law of physics arguement”, clearly that is the fairest interpretation of my comment and the verbiage “known to”. After all “Known to” is only “known to” be used as an absolute in the sense of the laws of physics. That is quite the self-defining circular logic when I think about it.

Obviously your make believe hypothetical implementation of a bounty program backed by breeding and release crimes punishable by life imprionsment, render my statement false because I said “known to”, whereas bounty programs in fact are not “known to” increase invasive species and result in failure - despite the only three real world examples used (two of which were in the same state). You are right it is not a law of physics, thus rendering any point moot based on your hypothetical, whereas $50 bounty programs per animal backed by life inprisonment crimes are “known to” succeed when the animal is in central Florida and is a monkey.

Re: Wild monkeys with killer herpes are breeding like crazy in Florida

#50

Post by newnewpdro »

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #48
newnewpdro wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring how life-altering it becomes as one ages and the immune system declines. I've had elderly relatives down with shingles, caused by the herpes virus, for months . Their shingles being a very latent reappearance of Chickenpox acquired in childhood. These viruses are opportunistic, and you will grow weaker in time, if you don't die first. The stigma, in this case, is appropriate in my opinion. It surprise…

I don't think anybody's claiming that having HSV is better than not having HSV, but the fact is that it's incredibly common. It's been with us for millennia and it's not going anywhere until medicine and technology figure out a way to wipe it out. To quote herpes.com stats: > By the time they're teenagers or young adults, about 50% of Americans have HSV-1 antibodies in their blood. By the time they are over age 50, s…

In your own words you stated:

> It's not life altering in any way besides the fact that HSV2 has such a strong stigma ...

It is potentially quite life-altering, and you may agree with me after you're over 60 years old. If you instead asserted "it hasn't been life-altering in any way so far besides..." then I wouldn't have replied at all.

Adding a persistent genital herpes outbreak to six months of shingles in old age qualifies as life-altering in my book.

Your comment comes across as if everyone should get over it and not exclude partners infected with genital herpes from their intimate lives, that this stigma exists just because it's associated with sex.

Nobody wants to be infected with any form of the herpes virus, the variants of which will cumulatively add life-altering complications when your immune system deteriorates. Genital herpes is appropriately highly stigmatized because it has the most potential for effective prevention through avoidance.

Choice of sexual partner is already culturally accepted as a highly discrimatory exercise, it basically goes unnoticed for the uninfected population to exclude those infected with genital herpes from their sex lives, it's not like the uninfected end up without sufficient available partners as a result. It has zero impact on their daily goings on. Compare that to the futility of stigmatizing Chickenpox however, the difference seems obvious.

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