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How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

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Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#181

Post by mstade »

oliveshell wrote: post #30
tinbad wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an integral part of a driving exam in the Netherlands. You are drilled to look over the shoulder for literally every maneuver (lane switch, turn, etc.) and if you fail to do it even once during the driving exam you will get a fail. In other news: driving test in the US is a complete joke.

For what it’s worth, it’s like that in much of the U.S. too— at least in my state (North Carolina), you’ll certainly fail the test if you change lanes without checking your blind spot. Driving tests vary state to state, though. And I agree with you that overall, driver education in the U.S. is woeful. I didn’t even have to parallel park for mine! Meanwhile Scandinavians have to prove they can recover from a slide to…

> Meanwhile Scandinavians have to prove they can recover from a slide to even get a license.

Not entirely accurate, at least not when I did it. You do have to go take the slide test, otherwise you're not actually eligible for even taking the driving test. The slide test isn't so much a test though, but more of a forced (albeit very fun) experience to get you to experience first hand what it's like to hit a patch of ice or pool of water and all of a sudden lose all traction. It used to be a way to teach people to simulate ABS brakes as well, but I think nowadays that might be less relevant since pretty any car has them.

If you took the test in the summer time the sliding was simulated by some pretty interesting contraption that had wheels that would just point in whatever direction you where going, and at the instructors command would lift the car of the ground to remove traction. Somewhat like suddenly putting the car in a shopping cart at full speed. It's a lot of fun, when done in a controlled environment!

I wonder if it's possible to retake this test every year or so. As it stands you have to renew the license every ten years, but you never have to take another test once you have it. You just send in a new photo basically. I can tell that I'm most likely a worse driver now than I used to be, at least in some situations, and I don't really keep up with changes in traffic regulations. (Signaling requirements in roundabouts have changed apparently, I had no idea.) Sometimes I think maybe we should have a mandated refresher course every few years, with another slide test refresher as well, just to keep up with things. Modern cars are basically sci-fi space ships now I feel, half the time I wonder if I'd even be able to drive with all the assistive technology that's in there..

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#182

Post by mstade »

mlillie wrote: post #165
mstade wrote: post #142

My driving instructor in Sweden gave me a rhyme to remember. It consisted of only three words: blicken, pilen, filen. It literally translates to: the view, the signal, the lane – in that order. Basically you always look through the mirrors first and take a glance to the side your changing lanes into to cover the blind spot, then if it's safe you turn on the signal, and then you switch lanes. It's not entirely accurat…

US equivalent is SMOG: Signal, Mirrors, Over the shoulder, Go when safe. Not sure whether it is better to signal before or after looking, but that was what my partner's driving instructor taught.

The point of looking first, as explained by my instructor, was to not freak out other drivers by signaling first. They might think you're going to suddenly pop out of the lane, spooking them to either speed up or slow down, or perhaps swirving, causing an accident that way. By looking first to make sure things are clear, you mitigate this risk. Of course, in heavy traffic this is still an issue; but heavy traffic typically means lower speeds as well so not necessarily as dangerous. That's the bit that comes with experience I suppose, learning when more attention is necessary.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#183

Post by ssambros »

People who drove cars in the EU and in the USA: did you ever notice how the blind spot problem almost completely disappears in the EU? That's because US enforces in the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard #111 [1] that the left side rear view mirror cannot be convex, to aid the detection of the vehicles in the blind spot. I have not yet come up with a good understanding of why that regulation even exists, but personally I feel much safer on the road with the European type rear view mirrors.

[1] 49 CFR 571.111 Rear visibility

S5.2 Outside rearview mirror - driver's side.

S5.2.1 Field of view. Each passenger car shall have an outside mirror of unit magnification [2].

[2] 'Unit magnification' mirror means a plane or flat mirror with a reflective surface through which the angular height and width of the image of an object is equal to the angular height and width of the object when viewed directly at the same distance except for flaws that do not exceed normal manufacturing tolerances.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#184

Post by baddox »

wahern wrote: post #176
baddox wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that your attention isn't riveted on the mirrors at all times. Well, sure, no one is going to be perfect, but similarly, no one is going to always check over their shoulder. > In road tests, you have to do everything by the book, though. Of course. I expect proctors to do things by the book. That's easier and more consistent than trusting each proctor's judgment. My complaints about the test methodol…

> Well, sure, no one is going to be perfect, but similarly, no one is going to always check over their shoulder. Plenty of people do. I do. You make it a habit so it's not something you even think about. Or put another way, it's like brushing your teeth--it's something you do because not doing it makes you uncomfortable. (And as someone who had to develop the habit of brushing as an adult rather than being trained as…

> Plenty of people do. I do.

What I mean is that "check your mirrors" and "look over your shoulder" are equally easy to follow. I didn't look over my shoulder because I had checked my mirrors and was extremely confident there was no car in my blind spot. I still have a rule that I follow all the time.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#185

Post by baddox »

kazinator wrote: post #180
baddox wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still doesn't make sense. Why does the rule "always look over your shoulder" work for imperfect humans, but the extremely similar rule "always check your mirrors" doesn't? Both rules obviously work when followed and don't work when not followed.

It is not feasible to be always monitoring the mirrors; that takes attention from what is in front of you. You in fact must not be constantly monitoring the mirrors, but only glancing from time to time.

I would say you are driving with extremely low situational awareness if you are not always aware of cars approaching and overtaking you from behind.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#186

Post by danjayh »

AceyMan wrote: post #167
danjayh wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that extra caution is needed for pedestrians and bicycles. Having said that, I never understood why bicycles aren't required to ride on the sidewalks in areas that have them. The threat posed by a car to a bike is much greater than the threat posed by a bike to a pedestrian, therefore, to maximize safety bikes should be on the sidewalk. As far as motorcycles are concerned - I think they're a bad idea in general…

> I never understood why bicycles aren't required to ride on the sidewalks in areas that have them. I'm so positively gobsmacked that a statement this plainly ignorant came from a fellow HN participant, I don't even know where to begin. Start with: bicycles are vehicles—always have been, in fact. Pedestrians are not. Sidewalks are for pedestrians. (It's not a "sideride" after all. ) Even razor/bird scooters on sidewa…

Ignorant because it's not what you believe, or because you have data to justify your beliefs? Explain to me the logic from a safety perspective. 40mph car vs 15mph bike? Biker is lucky to live. 15mph bike vs 4mph pedestrian? Maybe a broken bone, if that. Besides insulting me and declaring that because bicycles are vehicles they should be on the road, you provide no quantitative reasoning to back your position. I fail to see how that's enlightened.

Let's first acknowledge that between mixed traffic (whatever the mix may be) collisions will happen, and then discuss how to minimize harm.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#187

Post by Hello71 »

ssambros wrote: post #183

People who drove cars in the EU and in the USA: did you ever notice how the blind spot problem almost completely disappears in the EU? That's because US enforces in the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard #111 [1] that the left side rear view mirror cannot be convex, to aid the detection of the vehicles in the blind spot. I have not yet come up with a good understanding of why that regulation even exists, but perso…

it's the same reason that convex mirrors in America must have the text "OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR" engraved. i.e. Americans (think Americans) are stupid.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#188

Post by wcarron »

nradov wrote: post #122
wcarron wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a manual transmission makes you engage more with the car. You must control it more actively, thus teaching drivers to focus on and observe the car and road rather than waiting for directives from sensors like blind-spot detection lights. An automatic mentally allows the driver to feel and operate more like a passenger than a pilot. Manual trans prevents this. It's not about some pretentious "feel" like porsch…

Your could make the same arguments for bringing back manual chokes. I think it's better to reduce the driver's workload so they can keep both hands on the wheel and devote more attention to what's happening outside.

> so they can keep both hands on the wheel and devote more attention to what's happening outside.

That was my point though. When driving a manual, your hands are either A) on the wheel, or B) one on wheel, other shifting gears. You can't really do much else. Maybe drink coffee if you're sitting in the same gear over distance, but in suburban traffic with stop lights and signs and turns, you can't afford to do much more than drive, shift, and execute maneuvers like lane changes, turns, etc.

There's far less opportunity to do things like text, read, rubberneck, etc. I.E. Devote more attention to what's happening outside.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#189

Post by AceyMan »

kazinator wrote: post #58
baddox wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, in my US driving test I was penalized (I still passed the test) for not looking over my shoulder before one lane change. It was a two-lane one-way road with zero traffic. There's no way a car could've gotten there without me seeing it in my mirrors unless it had been dropped from the air into my blind spot. I'm definitely not still bitter.

I've had plenty of moments in my 33 years as a driver where a vehicle dropped out of the sky and into my blind spot; they just do that! The problem is that your attention isn't riveted on the mirrors at all times. If you have been sternly monitoring the mirrors in the previous fraction of a minute, then such a hypothesis does hold. In road tests, you have to do everything by the book, though. They want to see that yo…

>The problem is that your attention isn't riveted on the mirrors at all times.

This is mitigated by what pilots call their "scan" or "flow" (I've heard both terms).

Pilots follow a visual path around the instruments to ensure they refresh their awareness of critical values and system states (airspeed, ascent rate, engine parameters, etc.) at appropriate intervals¹.

I argue that drivers should have a similar flow to maintain constant situational awareness, and side mirrors are a key element in such a pattern.

I also have a pre-drive checklist that I call the "Six Ls" —

Lights (obvi), Locks (obvi) , Levels (fuel, oil press, electrical supply, etc.), Laps (seat belts), Load (cargo secured?), Loud (radio down/pax calm).

/Acey

¹—With automatic alerting in modern planes this arguably is not strictly needed, but pilots start in small, simple planes before moving up the tech stack and it's a good practice at any level.

Re: How to Eliminate the Dreaded “Blind Spot”

#190

Post by rrock »

No. A thousand times no. I did this, on the advice of “Click” and “Clack” the CarTalk brothers. Shortly after, I backed into a short concrete pillar and messed up my left rear fender. The pillar was too short to see out of the back window, but I would have seen it if my side mirrors were set correctly as they reach you in school. You have to see where your fenders are going. Imagine if it was a small child back there instead of a pillar.
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