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The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

the-tls.co.uk

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Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would recommend explaining the relationship of my activities W? Honest question, I’d love to not come across as such a moron. Thanks for the feedback.

Let me start by saying that it is great to see how you deal with the feedback you get, this is not an easy feat. Some more preliminaries: When I write a comment on HN, I first ask myself: what is the message I want to send to potential readers? And then I put some effort into expressing it as good as I can. After reading your comment, I had a hard time identifying any message, and I think the reason is that you emplo…

Absolutely! I truly don't want to come across as that downvote seeking troll. I really want to share and engage in rich conversations with interesting people online.

I really appreciate your feedback. I think you touched on a key point of contention for me that I need to work very hard on:

> if you don't spend effort in writing, why should I spend so much effort in reading?

I come at this from precisely the opposite angle: "I could pour my heart into something and have it ignored because it's too long, so I'm just going to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks."

Obviously, I know this is a poor solution. I'm actually building a website instead that I believe solves my problem and many more. That will give me the motivation required to put in the effort up front to polish things up a bit more.

The problem, for me, boils down to one thing: we have a content discovery problem. Low energy bullshit rises easily, while content that takes a while to parse rises quite quickly.

The saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" is perfect here. It's also roughly 1,000 times more difficult to read, parse, understand, and provide feedback for content such as mine than to like a gif on Reddit, for example.

Again, thank you for the feedback. I've copied it into my notes (highly recommend Bear app for mac / iOS if you're in the market) and will meditate on it and hopefully improve through it.

If you're interested in the project I'm working on that I believe solves this problem, here's some stuff I wrote about it:

https://medium.com/@michaellustig/knophy-or-how-were-going-t...

https://medium.com/@michaellustig/step-by-step-explanation-o...

Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#52

I've noticed Wittgenstein is mentioned quite a lot on HN threads about philosophy. I suspect he's a favorite of engineer types because his conceptions nullify large swaths of philosophical activity and thinking. This conclusion allows the untrained student to feel as if they've entered a cheat code to reach the end of the discourse -- it's all a language game, so I need not waste my time with further inquiry.

Strongly disagree. Wittgenstein clears the way for traditional philosophy topics (ethics, aesthetics, etc.) to be taken seriously.

'Engineer types' may react to ethical discussions by pointing out that you can't define right and wrong, and may then wrongly conclude that they don't exist. But Wittgenstein shows that this is an isolated demand for rigor.

Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#53
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What style would be better to use? I don’t even know what you mean by rhetorical style, apologies. Thanks for the feedback.

I think they mean that the unedited, the stream-of-consciousness style you're employing, while "honest" in that you give the reader the the full paper trail of where your conclusions are coming from, has a low signal-to-noise ratio, making it tedious to read. It's surprising to me that someone compared your work to Wittgenstein's. His writing contains an extraordinary amount of dense, finely-honed philosophical conte…

>I think they mean that the unedited, the stream-of-consciousness style you're employing, while "honest" in that you give the reader the the full paper trail of where your conclusions are coming from, has a low signal-to-noise ratio, making it tedious to read.

Certainly fair, great point!

>If you're looking for more feedback, I would suggest that you read. Read orders of magnitude more than you write, in fact, no matter how much you write. No matter how old or how experienced you are, philosophy is a party that has been going on for thousands of years and you have only just arrived. There is always more to read, and for any novel idea or theory you have that is keeping you up at night pondering it, there is almost certainly someone whose entire life's work was dedicated to the exploration of that one idea.

Whenever I am not working, spending time with my wife, or writing, I am reading or listening to books or podcasts on philosophy, thinking, history, etc. Great recommendation.

>Gödel's incompleteness theorems say about the foundations of math, but you gotta do the work to get there.

Have you heard of GEB? Fascinating you'd make that connection here. We could almost call that a Golden Braid on its own.

>Read history. Read about propaganda campaigns and why they worked, and past instances of "information radiation". Look up all the 20th century theorists who warned us about the power of television to make even the most horrific atrocities banal. It's all been said before.

Please point me to some reading about exactly what atrocities they warned of. I'd love to read more. I never claim any ideas are new, as I don't really believe that to be possible. Rather, there are no new ideas under the sun. This points at a more deeply ceded philosophy that we won't get to in this conversation.

>Contributing new thought is hard work, and one of the reasons why it is hard work is that you have to first understand the entire conversation that had been already happening right up until you joined the party.

If you provide any more feedback for me here, PLEASE, let me know where something like I'm working on has been done before as I'm searching far and wide for help.

https://medium.com/@michaellustig/knophy-or-how-were-going-t...

https://medium.com/@michaellustig/step-by-step-explanation-o...

Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective subjectivism does not lead to universal truth even closely. There is no universal truth, but only your personal experience and perception. This is true both for things which you see, and also for morality. In Wittgenstein’s world, your subjective morality is neither true nor false.

What would you say of a hypothetical claim that was ideally translated to all languages that everyone, when asked, unforced, agreed that it was an accurate description of their subjective experience? I'm digging underneath Wittgenstein's ideas of subjective morality a little bit. Humor me here and let me know what you think. I'm truly curious.

> What would you say of a hypothetical claim that was ideally translated to all languages that everyone, when asked, unforced, agreed that it was an accurate description of their subjective experience?

We don't actually learn anything fundamental here.

Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#55

My favourite Wittgenstein quote: "A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring."

Shouldn't philosopher seek truth and knowledge rather then one-on-one competition of quick wit and reaction?

Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#56
It's interesting and informative that a lot of the commenters here have positive reviews or experiences with Wittgenstein.

I have not read any of his work but remember Paul Graham had a mixed take on Wittgenstein in his essay "How to Do Philosophy". Wittgenstein helped shake up philosophical thought, but his later focus on philosophy of language led his followers to turn philosophy into a field of jargon.

http://www.paulgraham.com/philosophy.html

Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#58

https://youtu.be/ermZKgG4htU >But what is most strikingly original about Wittgenstein’s account in the Tractatus is his drawing out of the implications – which are to a degree disturbing – of this conception. One implication is for values. If I think or claim that the car is in the garage, then, built into that claim is the idea that this may be true or false. But when I think that, say, slavery is morally wrong, I t…

Collective subjectivism does not lead to universal truth even closely. There is no universal truth, but only your personal experience and perception. This is true both for things which you see, and also for morality. In Wittgenstein’s world, your subjective morality is neither true nor false.

> There is no universal truth, but only your personal experience and perception.

Is that a universal truth?

Re: The relentless honesty of Ludwig Wittgenstein (2017)

#60

I've noticed Wittgenstein is mentioned quite a lot on HN threads about philosophy. I suspect he's a favorite of engineer types because his conceptions nullify large swaths of philosophical activity and thinking. This conclusion allows the untrained student to feel as if they've entered a cheat code to reach the end of the discourse -- it's all a language game, so I need not waste my time with further inquiry.

Strongly disagree. Wittgenstein clears the way for traditional philosophy topics (ethics, aesthetics, etc.) to be taken seriously. 'Engineer types' may react to ethical discussions by pointing out that you can't define right and wrong, and may then wrongly conclude that they don't exist. But Wittgenstein shows that this is an isolated demand for rigor.

You can't define right or wrong? Tell that to an Aristotelian. You can most certainly define it and ground a natural law theory in it.
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