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Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

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Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#281
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the idea that forks are easy enough for the power to be distributed seems ludacris. you need to fork a large ratio of the users in order for a fork to do anything at all, otherwise the new coin has no value. This a gives massive inertia advantage to the original project

Thanks, I feel like I’m the crazy one when people talk about “just fork it” in response to the fact that developers of any specific coin could crash it at any point. That’s not how it works in reality. Bitcoin could be entirely ruined by a couple dozen people around the world in different ways at any time. Eth and other coins even more so. The idea of who “gets trusted” in these coins is just nuts. I’m not anti-coin.…

That's generally a good complaint about "just fork it", but there are some additional factors here.

One - every Ethereum update is a soft fork of the protocol

Two - they are required to be soft forks by the very existence of the difficulty bomb.

Three - running a blockchain is already a social activity that requires everyone participating to opt in to the same protocol.

I don't think it would be easy, by any means, to convince the community to move a different direction than that desired by the core devs. But my main point is that the difficulty bomb is a mechanism to force soft forks frequently. It is not a mechanism to force any particular long term path.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#282
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I guess when you are receiving you want irreversibility, when you are sending you prefer reversibility...

> Well I guess when you are receiving you want irreversibility I think that's a little simplistic. Without reversibility you're not going to receive as much. People are far less likely to trust smaller or newer merchants without these sorts of features. You probably also want your customers to be able to rectify mistakes, such as sending money to the wrong place. I guess we could say when you are receiving you want i…

With old money, reversibility is handled by return policies, merchant account charge-backs, liens, and civil lawsuits.

If you hand a bearer instrument like a bank note to someone, that transaction is technically irreversible. They put it in their pocket, and you can't recover it without a physical assault. You have to trust them to provide the goods or services that you just paid for. Or you have to trust the justice system that it will allow you to (eventually) recover your payment if the other party reneged. These remedies are often not available with cryptocurrency. You may be unaware of the counterparty's physical location or true identity, and even if you did, they may be in a different legal jurisdiction altogether. You can't round up a posse to go get the money back.

If you pay with a finance system account, you can dispute the charge with the payments processor, and your payment may be reversed by them, even after the cash balances have already been altered, by withholding payment from a future transaction through that processor. Criteria for reversal may vary between processors. If consumers trust the reversal policy of the processor, the merchants get more money, because consumers don't have to trust them or the formal justice system. They can get refunded now, and let the processor and the merchant argue over the details. This remedy is available to cryptocurrencies. While individual transactions are irreversible, it is possible to redirect future transactions through a trusted intermediary or a smart contract.

Basically, everyone wants an escrow mechanism of some sort built in to the system, so that if a customer doesn't get the goods or services, the merchant doesn't get their money; and if a merchant doesn't get paid, the customer doesn't get goods or services. As long as the transactions are irreversible, someone can get ripped off, and they have to go out-of-band for a remedy. As long as transactions are trivially reversible, someone can get ripped off, and they have to go out-of-band for a remedy.

Conveyance of money and delivery of goods or services are each half-trades. We don't like those half-trades. They're too much like gifts, in that there is too little ability to enforce reciprocity without a preexisting social link. If you conduct business in half-trades, you still have to trust, and people can still get ripped off. So far, cryptocurrencies only technologically validate the money-conveyance half-trade. What it needs is a way to validate the other half-trade, for goods or services, and bundle them both into an atomic whole-trade that either reverses or becomes permanent as a single unit.

Trade chains would be nice, too, but atomic transactions are what people need to trust the system instead of trusting each other.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#283
post #3

Proof of stake isn't a tested and reliable mechanism to achieve distributed consensus. It'll be interesting to see what happens to a real cryptocurrency that tries switching to an entirely new form of consensus.

10 years ago Proof of Work wasn't a well tested and reliable mechanism to achieve distributed consensus.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#284

I'm glad we switched away from Ethereum in favor of Stellar; it will take most of this year and probably next for the dust to settle on this. Until then, Ethereum continues to be unusable for serious dapps (which are rare to begin with) that have expectations that exceed having reasonable transaction throughput ( Until then, this is a toy platform for wannabe ICOs, misc gambling applications, and not much else that I…

As a smart contract developer I'm curious about

> It also skips the convoluted smart contracts (which IMHO are severely expensive, hard to fix, exploitable bugs waiting to happen) in favor of simple but adequate financial constructs builtin to stellar for custom assets.

To me that feels very very limiting and my optimism about Ethereum is the generality of the smart contracts and ability to programmatically enhance Ethereum.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#285
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This time bomb has, however, functioned more like an alarm clock with a snooze button. In October 2017, when mining time had already nearly doubled to 30 seconds, the Ethereum team reset the clock, delaying PoW’s doomsday by about 12 months. And they will likely hit snooze again shortly. How can Ethereum be decentralized if they can so easily keep changing it? From the minute they decided to back out The DAO's mist…

And many crypto-anarchists discovered that day that most people did not care about decentralization.

Decentralisation is important if you want the currency to work in an unregulated manner and not get shut down by the government.

The largest predecessor to bitcoin was e-gold

>The e-gold system was launched online in 1996 and had grown to five million accounts by 2009, when transfers were suspended due to legal issues.

The founder, Dr. Jackson, in July 08 - "pleaded guilty to "operation of an unlicensed money transmitting business" and "conspiracy to engage in money laundering"

Bitcoin founded in Aug 08 was decentralised so the authorities couldn't easily shut it and the founder went anonymous to avoid the problems of Dr. Jackson.

That's what the decentralisation is all about. It doesn't really matter that Bitcoin is effectively controlled by some Chinese miners or that Ethereum forks. It's about governments not being able to control them.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#286
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of the network is that it's owned and driven by the community. The community decided it was prudent to fork. It's not an issue with decentralization. The majority of the ETH world clearly does believe that, because ETH is where the vast majority of the community has stuck with.

The majority of the community believed in the fork, that's what I meant if I wasn't clear. That belief is contra to the concept of an immutable decentralized ledger, which means ETH isn't canonically a cryptocurrency, an immutable ledger, or a decentralized ledger anymore. The upcoming (well, it's never going to happen) POS fork is going to centralize it further among the very small number of massive whales who contr…

PoS is actually more decentralized when PoW. PoW is controlled by a few mining pools but PoS will have tens of thousands or more validators.

In PoW only a few people have the resources to build and run mining farms. Certainly not me. In PoS anyone can stake on a desktop or laptop. This greatly increases the amount of people who can participate in the network.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#287
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just my personal opinion, but designing a system that doesn’t allow for secure pooling will only enable insecure pooling. So making the choice to force people to share private keys as the only way to delegate capital will make the overall system a lot less secure, and just seems really irresponsible.

Delegation does not require sharing private keys. Nor does it require transferring XTZ to anywhere other than your own wallet. Ever. Period. The only risk associated with delegation is that the baker will run off with the baking rewards instead of distributing them. Of course, the incentive is low since this can only be done once. The community is active is discussing the trustworthiness of bakers (which, to date, ha…

My point exactly. Without delegation the only way to pool capital is to give up ownership.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#288

Proof-of-Stake is indeed a good thing, and a worthy focus of the article. From the article we read " the long-term hope is that apps built from them will eventually make Ethereum the ultimate cloud-computing platform. " Ethereum does not claim to be a computing platform in the same way that AWS is; it's for low-complexity business logic only. I think it's misleading to use "ultimate cloud-computing platform" to descr…

PoS was known way before PoW. It simply doesn't solve the problem at hand - decentralized consensus between mutually distrusting parties.

IOHK has many conference accepted peer reviewed research papers that show that proof of stake has equivalent security properties as proof of work.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#289

Proof-of-Stake is indeed a good thing, and a worthy focus of the article. From the article we read " the long-term hope is that apps built from them will eventually make Ethereum the ultimate cloud-computing platform. " Ethereum does not claim to be a computing platform in the same way that AWS is; it's for low-complexity business logic only. I think it's misleading to use "ultimate cloud-computing platform" to descr…

By the by, it’s not clear that proof of stake is good for crypto, although reducing the CO2 budget is unambiguously good for the rest of us. Most PoS systems I’ve seen basically reward the oldest money holders with the right to stamp new transactions. This reduces the cost, but is extremely centralizing, bordering on neo-feudal. The cynic in me also notes that developers of these chains are regularly the oldest money…

PoS is actually more decentralized when PoW. PoW is controlled by a few mining pools but PoS will have tens of thousands or more validators.

In PoW only a few people have the resources to build and run mining farms. Certainly not me. In PoS anyone can stake on a desktop or laptop. This greatly increases the amount of people who can participate in the network.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#290
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ethereum makes the mistake in assuming every site needs to operate like a bank, but people hardly use banking websites compared to YouTube or Reddit. Strawman. There is a time and place for strong security guarantees, nobody said social networks and media hosting should be done on the same network you use to transact money with. Maybe you'd be interested in EOS, Stellar and other transparent blockchain platforms? T…

> nobody said social networks and media hosting should be done on the same network you use to transact money with It's a strong consequence of the 0,1,N rule. The correct number of networks is clearly not "zero", and Metcalfe's Law ensures N networks are worse than N-1 networks with the same nodes in, so you get one network at the limit. Once upon a time I'd have called it "the Internet" but that's really redundant a…

The great thing about all this smart-contract stuff is that we're not limited to simplistic abstractions anymore. Rather than a linear approach, I think what's going to succeed is a "tree" of networks, with weaker ones committing hashes at regular checkpoints to stronger, more expensive chains (sort of a sparse Merkle tree[1]). This is already the approach taken by scaling solutions such as Thunderella[2] or sharding proposals[3]. This allows a more organic hierarchy between secure and fast networks.

e.g.: Imagine a fast but slightly centralized Twitter chain (only 21 validators let's say), committing hashes of every day of tweets to a decentralized public blockchain.

I'm not 100% sure whether that tweet posted by my friend 5 minutes ago is legitimate, but I don't need to be 100% certain to answer them and carry on the casual conservation. I can verify though, that the Trump tweet bordering on declaration of war posted 24h ago is indeed real, because the hash of the whole day of tweets was committed to a strong blockchain, and the author of the tweet didn't post any subsequent objection to it. I can proceed to hide in my bunker, confident in my choice.

[1]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_documentation#Merkle_Tre...

[2]: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/913.pdf

[3]: https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Sharding-FAQs#what-mig...

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